Simon: Okay. Hello everyone and welcome to European freedom livestream number 19. Which is a conversation with Nick Griffin, who isn’t here yet. Nick’s going to be here for the first hour, or so. So we got a lot to talk about. Let’s hope he arrives soon. If he’s not gonna be here for the first hour, he’ll be here for an hour, whenever he arrives.

But let’s chat about a few things before he comes, and welcome my good old mate Horus. How’s it going?

Horus: Well Simon. It’s good. I’ve just that a massive roast dinner which is quite a treat for Tuesday. And [word unclear] as well. So it’s going well. How are you doing?

Simon: That is good. I’m going okay. Pottering along.

Horus: Vienetta today?

Simon: Yes. We had had aubergines and I don’t know what haricot beans, I suppose they’re called and a bit of pepper, you know. At the moments I’ve cooked 32 with the 32nd day of the lockdown. We’ve had 32 different things to eat. I’m beginning to run out of ideas now! Becoming a bit difficult. What’s the state of your latest video?

Horus: I’ve recorded it. I’ll just got an odyssey of editing to do. It’s probably gonna end up being more than two hours, this one. I don’t even know if it’s that exciting, so don’t anyone be expecting anything. But I’ve started doing more conversations. I did my first live stream the other night. Which, thank you for your question, by the way.

Simon: Yeah.

Horus: And thanks to everyone else who tuned in to that. There were loads of people watching like compared to what I expected. And I’m hopefully talking to Alison Chabloz tomorrow, and others soon. So yeah, so I’ve done more live stuff in between. It’s just easier.

Simon: Well Nick is here. So I’m gonna add him to the stream. Good evening Nick! It’s very, very, it’s a great pleasure to finally speak to you.

Nick Griffin: Sorry about the delay. The internet is working at a snail’s pace here at the moment. But I’ve now managed to get on. We should be okay.

Simon: Good! That’s what’s important. Okay, as I said, to everybody in there in the chat and it’s gonna be here for the first hour, or so. So we need to crack on with questions. And before we start everybody knows who Nick is, so I don’t need to give him a massive introduction. But before we start I wanted to say to everyone how fantastic it is to finally speak to Nick, because most of the audience will remember when I came out on the JQ, back in February, March 2018. And after I came out it was a bit like being in a tank of piranhas! And one of the few people that reached out to support me was Nick. And he and I have been in loose contact every now and then. But it was really great to feel that there was someone out there fighting my corner. So I want to thank you for that Nick.

Nick Griffin: Oh you’re welcome. I was very pleased to see you come out, as they say! [chuckling]

Simon: Yeah, it was a big moment for me. Okay, let’s start with some Nick Griffin recent news. I’ve kind of noticed inevitably researching this show that you’ve done a flurry of interviews and you’ve kind of you’re back on the scene again. Can you give us some idea about why perhaps why are you back on the scene? What plans have you got in the immediate future?

Nick Griffin: Yeah, well it was really a question of why I was off the scene actually. A little bit of that what personal. I’ve been renovating a house, but I’ve I finished that. But far more important than that, I’ve been, for several years after leaving the BNP, people have been asking me, you know,:

“Form a political party Nick. We will follow you!”

And all the rest of it. And I wasn’t prepared to do that, because I concluded that the electoral road was shut. And so to say I’m forming a political party give me your subscriptions, everything’s going to be fine, would have been a pure lie, which I wasn’t prepared to do! And it’s taken me several years of well a lot of very intensive work and thought and research to really work out where we are, and what can be done. And there’s great many good things that can and should be done. So now that I’ve got a clear vision of where we need to go, and what needs to be done, then it’s time to start talking about it again and selling the idea.

So I’ve set this down into what’s effectively three books, actually. Now the first one pretty near completion. And once I felt, once I’ve got the answer to give to people, then I’m ready to get back involved. So I’ve taken the time out to do that. And now I’m nearly there. As you say a flurry of interviews which I hope will go on, because I’ve got a lot to say to people. And looking around it certainly needs saying, because there’s too many people out there, good people, who don’t know where they’re going, but no fault of their own it’s a matter of experience mainly. And other people are so tied up with the excitement of getting on and doing something, that they’re not doing the right thing.

[05:29]

Simon: Okay okay. So I mean, part of a part of our role here if you don’t mind, I’ll play devil’s advocate a little bit.

Nick Griffin: Splendid!

Simon: Obviously I’ve kind of listened to the interviews and listen to what you’ve been saying. I think particularly interesting was the audio that you released of the chapter to your book. And, you know, inevitably you being you, this is caused a lot of people to comment on it. So if you don’t mind, let me give my overview of what I think you’re saying. And then we can have a conversation based on that. And you can tell me if you think I’m right, or not.

To me it appears that what you’re saying is, firstly, it’s too late for any electoral solutions who are diminishing demographics to be viable. And secondly, that nationalists would be easily beaten by a combination of the liberal elites, forces of law and order, their leftist street militia, and the hoards of migrant orcs, if there were to be some kind of violent confrontation, some kind of ethnic civil war.

So the only option as far as you’re concerned, is preparing for our survival., you know what sounds to me a little bit like a post-apocalyptic world, really. And I’ve heard you talk a number of times about it’s a “three generation solution”. So is that a fair representation of what you’ve been saying? And if not, how do you think you could express it better?

Nick Griffin: Yeah. Thank you, Simon. That’s a very fair and accurate assessment what I’m saying. To use a simile, when I was leading the British National Party, effectively we and other nationalists in other parts of Europe similarly were calling out the passengers on the Titanic:

“Look the ship is heading towards an iceberg! It’s gonna strike, then you’re gonna to drown! And let us onto the bridge, and we’ll turn the ship around before it happens.”

We’re now in the position because of demographic reasons primarily, where the ship has hit the iceberg! The ship of Western civilization is going to sink!

So what I’m saying is there’s no point now fighting to get onto the bridge, when one, the powers to stop us even getting onto the bridge are now, so sophisticated — they worked out dealing with people like the BNP when we were the real threat — they’ve worked out how to deal with the threat. So they keep us off the bridge anyway! But even got in control of the bridge, it’s no use, because the ship is sinking! So we need to be not worrying about saving everybody. It cannot be done.

What we need to be worrying is about saving those who are awake enough to be saved, who want to be saved, and building the nucleus in every sense, a nucleus in genetic terms, in DNA terms, in cultural terms, the nucleus of our people who will survive what is now inevitable. Because at the other end of that collapse — and people say this is black pilling. And it’s not black peeling at all. A black pilling implies there’s no hope.

What I really say is that while liberalism was in effect unchallengeable, there was no hope, liberalism is now finished! The ship is going down and liberalism will be utterly finished and discredited! The minute liberalism is gone, then our people have hope. But for mainly demographic reasons there won’t be, it’ll take three generations before there’s enough of our people to take back our lands.

Horus: Why would it be possible for us to take back our lands later? Is that, because we would have put together a sort of certain hard core, presumably quite a small hard core, that will be so well organized and clear about it’s mission, and so on. Is that what you mean?

Nick Griffin: Yeah. It’s partly that, yeah, absolutely! But also it is purely about demographics. And I’ve spent all the time in Spain and I’ve studied the Reconquista in Spain. I know Simon you may have a position on this.

But time after time, in the villages and towns of central and southern Spain, if look into the history, you find a piece saying that in 14 whatever, or whatever the date was, some Duke of such and such, asked for people to come to from Galicia, like that up in the north to resettle the place.

[10:03]

And I came to the conclusion that the reason the Reconquista took seven hundred years, wasn’t really about the military side of things, it’s that’s how long it took in the days when large numbers of children died before they became adults, especially. That’s how long it took to breed enough young farmers and their wives, not only to wield swords, but also once they’d taken back the land, to use plows and to use it and to hold it. So the reason it’s a three generation struggle, is that the demographics of the Western populations, …

Once the boomer generation is gone and then the generation now only having one child per woman of childbearing age, once they die out having half their numbers, we’re going to be talking about a few million Brits! A couple of million Hungarians! Say 10 million German! There’s 10 million French. That’s all it’s going to be! And this isn’t me inventing something, or speculating, this is just hard demographic fact! That’s where we are going to be in 30, 40 years time.

So the only way to retake these lands is the combination is of — as you’re saying — a hard core who really know what’s to be done and are prepared to fight. And once liberalism has gone our people will fight, and no one will better us. And even with that, it’s still gonna take three generations of very rapid breeding to have enough young men and enough young women to take back the land and hold it.

Simon: I think we need to roll this back a little bit really. I mean, I would respond to that is, the Reconquista began from Asturias in 722 and from after the Battle of Poitier’s 732 [also called The Battle of Tours]. And certainly my knowledge, I’ve got a very, very deep knowledge of what happened in Catalonia. And it is true that the Muslims went up through Catalonia which is like a passageway into the rest of Europe, into what is now France. And the survivors basically hid up in the Pyrenees.

I’ve done this journey many times, it’s quite an emotional journey traveling down from the tiny little churches in the eighth, ninth, century churches in the Pyrenees. Like in [word unclear] which have got a beautiful little Romanesque churches. Then you move into central Catalonia, with slightly bigger churches. And then you get right close to the Valencian border and you’ve got magnificent monasteries! So you can see how the culture gained in confidence as they took more land back. But that was the seventh, and eighth century. This is the 21st century, and I’m not certain how many parallels we can draw from that.

Nick Griffin: I think you can draw a great deal, because history does go in circles. Obviously the technology, and so on, changes. But, if you look through all of European history, especially the more that’s known about, you know how DNA can be studied, and so on. So we see that the great moments of what, they weren’t sure, was a cultural change, or demographic change, say in the Bronze Age? And they now have concluded about Spain, that’s on the male side the pre-Bronze Age inhabitants of Spain just don’t exist, in modern genetics. The male’s are all Bronze Age males, and the females are the ones who go back to Neolithic times. So you have complete population change by men coming in slaughtering other men and taking their women. Brutal, but that’s the way change works!

And so I think that the example of what happens in the Reconquista, if Europeans are going to get back their lands, that is how it will be! It will take a long time, it’s combination of the sword and the cradle. And anyone who says there’s some easy way to do it, is simply either a fool will they’re deliberately lying! Because there is no easy way. But the minute liberalism is gone, the end result are pitting a population with average IQ of 100 against populations with an average IQ of 85, the result is not in question!

In the end we will take back every last piece of Europe! But it’ll be a damn sight easier if people stop wasting their time on fighting last century’s wars, and get on and think about what our people would need to win the wars that later on this century.

And I’m certainly not talking about guns, I’m talking mainly it’s a matter of spirit. It’s a matter of what’s going on in people’s heads, and their hearts. And are people prepared to stop thinking, … The greatest weakness of all of the Western European man is everybody thinks about “me”. Everybody thinks “I”. And we have to start getting into our people’s heads that “I” and “me” have to go! It has to be about “we” and “us”!

[15:12]

Simon: Okay, I definitely agree with that, but okay, let’s death let’s definitely roll it back, because this is based on a number of, well what we’re talking about now is based on quite a few suppositions. And the first one being that there is no electoral route. And I would challenge that! I know you’ve said that people are either conmen, or stupid. I don’t think I’m either. But I definitely think there’s there’s a possibility.

I’ve shared my, … I haven’t got it available now, but with Ralph Masilamani, we’ve done a couple of streams recently. And we’ve been looking at the electoral possibilities very seriously. And I’ve got a graphic that I’ll put up when I’ll stop talking, that shows that the top that, the first ten constituencies in Britain with the lowest majorities, are all majorities under a thousand. So they’re all kind of winnable. In order to turn things around you don’t necessarily have to win an election. You have to have political presence in Parliament. And once you’ve gained some political power then there’s the chance of holding the larger party’s feet to the fire.

So I mean, this is my opinion, I think it’s unwise to give up on the electoral route. The election route is obviously very, very, very difficult. And to a certain extent one of the problems — again one of the things we talk a lot but a lot about with Ralph — is what he calls the “Cathedral”. I’ll just call it the “system”. But the system to a certain extent has been gamed. What was once a homogeneous society, there are various out groups some of (((them))) from a country on the eastern coast of the Mediterranean — I think we know where who we’re talking about — but various other groups such as Muslims and blacks who have political presence.

And in many respects I agree with you, that we need to start thinking about “we”. But we need to racinate ourselves and start treating ourselves as an in-group, and fighting politically. Certainly initially as an in-group in order to win some win back some political power.

Nick Griffin: I understand everything there. I can understand why you and many other people genuinely think it. I would say — and bear in mind that I led the most successful electoral nationalist political party in the history of the entire English-speaking world, that’s a simple fact — so and, in fact, if you look at even many of the more successful apparently more successful European parties they have the huge advantage of having proportional representational systems. And if they have the same system as then, it’s not likely even the people at the Front National would have done any better than the BNP.

So honestly, I do know what I’m talking about. And I would say that the prospect of building a hardcore nationalist party capable of relaunching that challenge, it could not be done in less than 10 years! And the demographics are constantly against us! Worst of all, in dealing with the BNP, the British establishment came finally to understand — they called us all sort of names, Nazi, fascist — none other had any effect, if anything it actually turned desperate people towards us, because they realized that we were different to the hated politicians.

What stopped us was the safety valve. The UKIP trick! And you’ve seen this, you know, I speak to my colleagues in parties like the NPD in Germany, in [word unclear] over in Italy. And any time that real nationalists start to make enough progress to scare the system, the elites, whatever you want to call them, then they run out a safety valve, like Alternative for Deutschland, or [word unclear] Nord or whatever. If they don’t roll this out, they exploit it. And they boost it up as a real problem. So what you would end up, …

Yes, I agree that the same kind of electoral process that produced Brexit, might produce some kind of soft populist party getting somewhere near power. In which point all the other parties then gang up and impose their cordon sanitaire to stop them getting into power. If they even managed, if they appear to being able to overcome that, then like the Vlaams block in Flanders they simply banned as a threat to democracy!

[19:57]

Again I’m not being hypothetical, or scaremongering, that is what they have done. Now if the Western politicians, the Liberals, in the rest of Europe turned round and said to Belgium:

“You can’t do that! You can’t ban the most popular party in Belgium, just you don’t like them?”

Then you could think that they’d be hope for them behaving decently elsewhere in Europe. But without exception they all agreed that the liberal Belgian state was right to ban a nationalist party, because otherwise it might come to power and threaten democracy! So that is what they would do.

So at most you’ll end up with a populist party somewhere near power. And a populist parties an idea of dealing with the problem is to ban the burka, or to stop immigration. No matter whether you ban the burqa, or stop immigration. Their demographics, the expansion of their population, at the same time as ours is declining, has already sorted what’s going to happen in Europe in the next thirty years! We are going to be the minority! We’re going to be the biggest minority in our own country, but we are going to be the minority!

The other thing just to finish off on why it was go anywhere, is that if everybody in the country, or majority people in the country had attitudes like us three and the people listening to this show, yes, of course, we could do it. But you would have to say at some point to the public, in our case Britain, that when we send them all back. And if we don’t seem virtually all of them back, then we’re going to become a minority in their own country.

Then we’re going to be so short on young workers that it is actually true, that you’re going to work until the 80! Before you get your pension. And you’re going to have to pay massive confiscatory taxes, unless you have at least three children. Doesn’t matter whether you’re gay, straight, why ever you haven’t got children, if you haven’t got children you’re gonna have to pay massive taxes until your dying day!

Because to get our birth rate up from one, which is where we are now, realistically. A woman of childbearing age, to get that up to three, we are going to have to spend vast amounts of money on people so they can have children! Because there’s now, so few women of childbearing age and below, that unless we pay each vast amounts of money, and give them vast amounts of help and status, it’s not going to happen! So, and on top of this, when people say and I’ve had lots of youngsters especially say to me:

“Well we’ll have to come to power and we’ll have to simply say to them you’re going! We will issue a decree, like Edward the first did. We will send them all home!”

I’m sorry! It’s not going to happen! This is their home, unfortunately. They don’t want to go home! Why would they want to go back home to Pakistan, or Somalia, when that they can live perfectly nicely in Britain? They would fight! And I see no sign, whatsoever that the British of my generation, your generation, or the young generation now, have got what it takes to win, let alone survive an ethnic civil war in which hundreds of thousands of people die horrible deaths! It’s a fantasy! It’s a nonsensical fantasy! It is not going to happen!

Therefore we are going to become a minority in our own country! So anything which encourages people to expend their energy on the idea of a nice soft solution, and thereby stops people from putting their energy into building communities, into helping families rear their kids the right way, so they become part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. Anything which takes away from the things we can do in pursuit of a fantasy of what we’d like to do, is a desperate danger to the survival of our people!

[23:35]

Simon: Okay. And, you know, in order to prepare for this one of the things that I listened to was Jonathan Bowden’s “Vanguardism” speech which is a hope for the future. And one of the interesting things he says and the nice thing is, is the example he gives is the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks meeting in a pub in London — this saves me having to talk about the people that joined the party of a certain Austrian painter, only being 7% of the German population — but  the example he gives is that small groups of “Vanguards” are the people that actually change history. Nobody would have predicted in 1900 that 20 years later, or 17 years later, the Bolshevik Revolution would have been successful in Russia. So there’s a degree of Vanguardism.

And I don’t disagree with you on, or I completely agree on the idea of building community. And to a certain extent what we’re talking about is the reason why both Horus and I are loosely involved, or supporters of Patriotic Alternative. And both of us  think this is the best option we’ve got. What we’re trying to do is at the same time as build community and solidarity, investigate political possibilities. At the moment the party isn’t a feasible electoral option, but that’s not counted out for the future. And something else that I would say is that the, and with all due respect, obviously the BNP is the most successful nationalist party.

Nick Griffin: Was, was!

Simon: Okay “was” the most successful nationalist party, certainly in my life. I was going to say “is in my lifetime“.

But the whole culture has changed. I heard you talking about the need for kind of working-class boot boys, and that was the one of the reasons why the BNP and the National Front before it had such a bad image. Yeah that’s possibly true. But certainly I think there’s a cultural change that’s taking place. And this is not, I come from a working class myself. I’m educated out of it to a certain extent as a result of university. But I identify as working-class. So I’m certainly not doing down other members of my class. I feel very proud to know that’s where I’m from.

But as a slightly more educated, slightly more elitist, and in lots of nationalist politics people often talk about the need for an “elite“, an “officer class” as it were. And I’m not certainly not saying that National Front, people like yourself and Martin Tyndale, weren’t officer class. But I think the popularity, that the dam has burst, in terms of the social acceptability of what has now become, turned from the Alt-Right to the dissident Right. And it’s actually quite “cool” to be dissident Right in a way that once again, with all due respect, I don’t think it was ever “cool” in inverted commas, to be National Front, or BNP.

[27:13]

Nick Griffin: Yeah, I understand where you’re coming from. It was very [sound cut out for 10 seconds]  but not, primarily Mark Collett has radicalized a huge number of young, middle class, lads. Some of them taken from the Tommy sort of movement, who were on a rather like you, an intellectual voyage of discovery of their own. But also a lot of youngsters who wouldn’t have touched Tommy, because he was a working-class oink. And that’s a kind of English snobbery, which by the way, I detest. But it’s realistic. It’s there.

So they have been radicalized and I would accept your concept that here we have a potential officer class, but for one problem. They’re virtually all hiding behind pseudonyms! And I, at present, don’t see any sign, and I know mark’s actually trying, fair play, to say we’ve got to get away from being behind our computers, and out into the real world! You have to be in the real world under your own name!

Now I think perhaps there’s a hope here of external circumstances coming into our advantage. Because the economic depression that is going to be caused by the government’s clearly deliberately catastrophic mishandling at the coronavirus problem. I hope it is going to be such that these young men are going to realize they didn’t want to go to university anyway! There was no need them going to university, anyway! And getting a huge debt and a worthless degree.

And I hope very much that this is going to, by extinguishing basically the middle class, because they’re going to be squeezed between people that receive benefits, courtesy of the state, and the fraction of a 1%, who have really all the wealth.

So I think that the squeeze on the middle class that’s coming may indeed leave some middle class youngsters to realize:

“I’ve got nothing to lose! I may as well get out there on the my own name and do things that I want to do, rather than getting on the bourgeois hamster wheel for my entire life!”

And the minute they’re on the hamster wheel with a debt, then you’ll see their radicalism without their name to it simply vanish. Which I don’t want to see.

But that’s the problem with the officer class. I’ll believe these people are officer class if they all stand up and give their real name, and abandon the pretense you can be a radical nationalist to be “cool”, and at the same time have a career within the system. You cannot! You have to make a choice!

You have a career, and lots of money, and your wife has to work as well, because you can’t afford a house in London. You can have a career, all that, and no children, or you can get out of this system and have lots of kids and be part of a “revolutionary vanguard”. I hope lots of new young lads do make the right choice.

[30:03]

Simon: Well they’re lovely Alison’s Chabloz who’s in the chat has said:

“Lots of us are using our real names. I would include myself in that. Can the gentlemen in this stream who is hiding behind a pseudonym.“

Horus. What have you got to say about that mate?

Horus: What, about being under a pseudonym myself?

Simon: Well, no. I mean, more generally. I’m using that as a link to bring you into the conversation.

Horus: Oh, thanks! Well what I want to talk about the political solution, … Nick if I’m correct you’re saying it is we should abandon a political solution altogether? I mean, are you saying, because Patriotic Alternative, quite explicitly says:

“We may become a minority against all our efforts. It still may well happen.”

We’re still certainly on course for that at the moment. But their intention is to build as much community and solidarity with each other as possible, for collectivizing, you know, in a good way. And also doing as much as we can in politics knowing that we may fail. And are you saying that the political side of that is a waste of resources, a waste of scarce resources?

Nick Griffin: Yeah absolutely! Because it’s not a question if we “may fail“, we “may not” become a minority. We are going to become a minority! That’s it! The demographics are already there!

People don’t see it, because, say a man at 50, so 10 years younger than me and a man at 50 looks hale, and a woman of 50, they look hale and hearty. They are vigorous parts of the community, but, they cannot have any more children! End of! In demographic terms they are waiting to shuffle off their mortal coil. And that is where huge majority of the population of the entire West, now is!

And the number, if you look at the number of young women of childbearing age and younger. And the ones of childbearing age now are having even fewer children than the last generation did. So that’s not going to change, especially in a recession, stroke depression, birth rates go down!

So, for the next 10 years our birth rate is going to be even lower and it has been up until now. And the birth rate for them, the “others“, and because capitalism needs mouths — it  doesn’t need workers so much now because robots can do the work — capitalism needs consumers! People to recirculate the taxes. So all the pressure on the elites is — even if they didn’t want to get rid of us — they’re pushed to getting rid of us, because the only place they can find young people, who are the ideal consumers in a society, is to bring them in from abroad! So immigration is not going to stop.

Anyone trying to stop immigration is going to get squished, because if you stop immigration, the capitalist system is screwed! So yeah, I am saying that the political, or political path is completely shut! It’s not a question of when, if we become a minority, we’re going to be!

So if Patriotic Alternative accepts that and says:

“Right! We’re going to be a political party like the Socialist Workers Party.”

A political party, not an electoral party. People snigger at the Socialist Workers Party. But probably the majority of teachers in this country right now, have when they were at University went through, or flirted with, the Socialist Workers Party.

After 30, 40 years, they’ve told their people, so many of them, “go and become teachers“. And although once they become teachers on a screw, they then you lose their enthusiasm for sharing their wages with the workers, they still take with them the cultural Marxism that’s been inculcated through the universities and then honed  by the SWP. And they are hugely effective force for a pernicious revolution in this country.

And they did once try. It’s very important this, actually. In the late 70s, the law in Britain meant that — the electoral law in Britain — meant that you couldn’t put out a single leaflet during an election unless you were standing.

And the Socialist Workers Party said to their members, … now I’m sure, you know, they’ve always said there is no parliamentary road to socialism. So they said:

“We know we’ve always said there’s no parliamentary road, but we’re gonna have to stand in these elections, because we’ve got to put out literature to stop the fascists! (this was the National Front) It’s the only way we can do it. So we’re not standing for the votes, we’re just standing as a tactic so we can oppose the fascist more effectively.”

Even when they told their highly political, highly intelligent, highly educated, members that, when they got such disastrous risible votes up against the National Front, it did them so much damage in terms of there morale that they had to stop!

[34:49]

And the key problem with fighting elections when everything is stacked against you, because you’re not just up against the ideology of the other parties — I used to think that — you’re not, especially at the local council level which is where you can, we used to win seats. Like Mark Collett got 25%, or so in one Leeds seat, not a particularly good one. We used to take council seats, but when you go for council seat you’re not just up against ideology, you are depriving mainly Labour Party, or Liberal politicians, of them living! You’re on their economic turf! You’re taking away their wage and you’re taking away the backhander cash that they get from corrupt deals with developers on the council. And those people will fight you tooth and nail!

As a result even if you occasionally managed to win a seat you’re then in the position, … we are a political guerrilla army. Guerrilla armies do not hold fixed positions. Once you win a seat it’s a fixed position. You have to defend it and they’ve got five years to throw vast amounts of money, and the trade unions, and the NGOs, and all the rest of it, are taking the seat off you. So you lose the seat and your morale goes to rock bottom.

And it’s the key problem with the attempt of playing the electoral road for a party like Patriotic Alternative, is that you get sucked into that system and you get utterly demoralized by trying to fight a fight which you can never win and hold.

And so it’s far, far, better I believe to do what Mark’s already partly got by saying:

“We have to build community, we have to build solidarity.”

Just do that! And completely stay away from the electoral road! If he does that, he’ll have — he may not want it — he’ll have my full support.

Horus: One thing that does stand out in the con that says:

“Do pursue the electoral road.”

For me, is that UKIP admittedly they had an easier task than PA, they had some actual wealthy backers, and so on. but they, you know, and I agree exactly with what you said about they were used to diffuse genuine nationalism, and so on, and Farage made that explicit,  more than once. But, they only ever got two seats and they were thanks to defections. But their pressure nearly split the Tory party,  well it caused grave problems for the Tory leadership, right? And that is what led to the EU referendum.

What is to say that we can’t do that in fairly, you know, I don’t know in what timescale. But let’s do that to maybe get a referendum on demographics, or something like that. Do you not see any possibilities there?

Nick Griffin: No. UKIP,  Ferrage is a brilliant and a very lucky politician. Very lucky, because if you think when in the 2011 general election, so this is two years after myself and Andrew Brons were elected as MEPs* under a PR [Proportional Representation] system, which, of course, is now abolished for Britain. which is the thing that really made UKIP. You know, they were getting people elected as MEP from 1999 onwards. There’s no possibility of that now, and we have to win first past the post. If you haven’t had the European thing, and the European Parliament system, UKIP would never have gotten off the ground.

[* Brons was elected as a Member of the European Parliament (MEP) for Yorkshire and the Humber for the British National Party (BNP) at the 2009 European Parliament election. He was the Chairman of the National Front in the early 1980s.]

Having gone off the ground they were used a bit by the establishment to block the BNP. it was on an amazing scale!

In 2011, Farage and I, as far as the BBC rules for Question Time were concerned, were the same. So 2009 onwards. We should have had two appearances a year and one extra appearance a year if something came up which was our issue. So in the case of [words unclear] of the BNP, say the grooming issue came up, I should have been on. If something came up about the EU, Farage should have been on. Instead of that, I was on once as part of — as you know —  a victim of a lynch mob! Farage was on 22 times! The BBC arch multi racialist — as you know — arch pro-Europeans, put Farage even on things like “Have I Got News for You“.* They promoted him obscenely in order to stop the BNP!

[* BBC programme since 1990— Celebrity contestants find themselves in the hot seat as they are quizzed on the latest news.]

So the reason you got Brexit in the end was that the core part of the liberal establishment, the BBC, was so terrified of the BNP getting a couple more seats in Europe — which actual would have made not a blind bit of difference — they were so scared of that, they promoted Farage and hence you UKIP, beyond anything it was a remotely reasonable, let alone decent. And thereby they got Brexit!

So it was so exceptional. but to say:

“Well just perhaps somehow, something like that will happen.”

In this case,  it’s no! It simply is not realistic. It is an utterly false hope!

And I come back again, … just sorry just one more thing to come back. That it would be at least 10 years before any new party was remotely in a position to exercise that kind of challenge. Then bear in mind there’s two new parties out there.  There’s the Civic Nationalist party, Anne Marie Waters,  that nonsense! And there’s Patriotic Alternative doing and saying really pretty good things.

But when push came to shove, the BBC would promote Anne Marie Waters, rather than Mark Collett, as a way of blocking him. And that alone would stop it.

[40:01]

And plus ten years time, you wait and see what proportion of young people, … you look in any primary school playground almost anywhere in England, you look at the population of them and portion of them and us. In 10-15 years time that proportion will be the case on the streets. And anyone who thinks they can push forward some kind of radical political change, when the streets of every major city and almost every town in Britain are controlled by radicalized young Muslims, I’m afraid it’s a pipe dream! It simply will not happen!

And if you want to understand what people should be doing, then, rather than looking at what happened between the BNP and UKIP 15 years ago, or whatever, you need to look at Northern Ireland. And look at how when the Republicans, the Catholics were the minority they used things like the Gaelic Athletic Association to build the cohesion and the strength of their community, both in terms of getting their own people better educations, but also controlling the streets in their areas.

And you now look at what the Loyalists are doing, now they’re the minority, with the Loyalist bands. And that Loyalist is now a minority in Northern Ireland, but every Saturday in the summer they put a hundred thousand young men out on the streets marching in military formation, quite legally, because they’re playing flutes.

But I’ll tell you what, those people control those streets. And whatever the British government, or the Irish government, or Sinn Fein* wants to do them they do with them, those people are not going away! They may be in the minority, but they will retain cohesion and control of their areas.

[* Sinn Féin is a centre-left to left-wing Irish republican political party active in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.]

And there’s nothing that is done in Northern Ireland that could not be done in Britain, if people weren’t wasting their time fantasizing about an electoral victory which will never happen!

[41:51]

Simon: I’ll agree with you there to a certain extent, particularly from my experience in Catalonia, however cucked the Catalan Independence movement is now. Under Franco — the Catalans actually have a verb for it, they call it “Associationism” — and under Franco they could dance, they could play folk music, they could have barbecued onion eating festivals, lots of the weird things Catalonia do. And these are all covert ways of meeting and being Catalans, and building a community, and under what was an oppressive regime for them.

I want to bring up other points. There’s White is the New Green in the chat, says:

“Build communities. Stand in parish elections. Many of which have less candidates than seats available, so the votes aren’t even counted.”

And here we’ve got Steve Ben Bob on the superchats. He sends in four US dollars. And he says:

“Has Nick seen Ralph’s Right Reaction videos on the ‘Cathedral’?”

I’m gonna allude to the “Cathedral” further on in the conversation. In these he gives a possibly winning strategy of us gaining some sort of power. Now I can review some of those.

Nick Griffin: If you could paraphrase what that is, I’d be interested.

Simon: Well, part of it is what Ralph is doing is he’s working out all the seats — there’s 650 seats in Great Britain, in Northern Ireland. And obviously, you know, the East End of London which is all Muslim, or parts of Birmingham are of no interest to fighting. So what he’s trying to do is target particular areas where campaigning, … firstly community building, and secondly political campaigning would be worth a new nationalist parties while.

Now I would also add to that, that there’s been a sea change in the last election. And between now and the next election is a crucial point in time. I wouldn’t put it off 10, 20 years. I think that we should be considering the next election, because the loss of the “Red Wall”. Labour’s red wall to the Conservatives in the last election is a very significant political move, particularly in England. Because these people in the north of England realize that the party are traitors to the White working-class and are much more interested in minorities, Muslims, and the whole LGBT thing. It bears no relation to them. And they voted Tory, but they’re not loyal to Tories. They’re still working class in ethos. And this provides an opening for any nationalist party that comes along. Which I don’t think the BNP had in its day. I don’t know what you think about that?

[45:06]

Nick Griffin: Yeah, well we certainly have the opening that there is potentially now. That’s entirely true. But we had a hard core of people who were very well trained in electioneering, and who were based in those communities as local adults. And who were prepared to stand up in their own area, with a long history of doing so. And that doesn’t exist at present.

There is no possibility, especially with middle-class kids from London, of suddenly going to the people and building that sort of base! And if you attempted to, one, people follow people rather like themselves, just slightly higher up the social scale, and from their own area. And you can’t bring in “outsiders” in this way.

And if there are some decent young lads in places like Batley* and Halifax, and so on, fairplay. But they will come up again to what I said earlier. They’ll come up against the Labour Party, deeply entrenched, with heavies! And they’ll pay money to get rid of any threat, because it’s not, as I said before, it’s not just a threat to their ideology, to their politics, it’s a threat to their business base.

[* Batley is a market town in the Metropolitan Borough of Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England]

And you have no, … I don’t think people haven’t been there, you have no conception of how hard those people will fight! And how effective their fighting is! And if Boris and Co let down the working class, which, of course, they will, then rather than turning to the nationalists, they will give Keir Starmer and the “New Labour” Party a second chance. Because, “Oh Corbyn“, … and I’m sure that people like Allison Chabloz and yourself, you understand the way in which Corbyn was crucified, not for his economic views, but overwhelmingly, because of his position on the zionist, Israeli, etc., etc., thing.

So in the next election if the White working-class want to the revolt against Boris and Co they will do so overwhelmingly by going back to the Labour Party! And the Labour Party will put a little bit of their craziest LGBT+ poison under wraps. And that’s it! That’s another five years wasted. And it’s the cycle that’s going around, and again, and again, and again!

I’d like to raise one thing. You said, your commentator there on the chat;

“Why does the New Green take out parish councils?”

Absolutely! And the key thing on parish councils, and the reason that the BNP has lost every single one of the counselors it used to have, in terms of districts and above. The ones where people get paid a salary, so it’s a business if you’re in the Labor Party, or the Lib Dems. They lost all of those. But they control an entire town council, wrecked as the BNP is, it still controls, or it’s taken control of an entire town council, Parish Council in effect, in Essex. Because where there’s no money in it, the other parties aren’t interested. And that is the point at which you can indeed do local community building, if you get in at that level. So that’s entirely a different matter because it is not really electioneering at all.

But I would still, if you want to do something to sink roots in a local area, you can in an election, in a general election, the one you’re talking about Simon, five years time. You’d need to spend at least five thousand pounds in that constituency to really start to have any kind of impact at all. So you can do that and get seven percent of the vote if you’re very lucky! More likely 1.7 percent, but that’s by the by. And unless you get more votes than anybody else, plus one, you certainly are not going to win. There’s no prizes for coming second in British parliamentary elections.

Instead of that you could put that five thousand pounds, and hundreds, and hundreds, of man-hours — thousands of man-hours if you’re doing a proper job — you could put that into setting up a local charity shop where people who are locally minded and patriotic, the Brexiters, and the ones who don’t like the groomers and all the rest of it. They can understand what the shops doing, it’s only helping local people. And you could set that shop up, you could fund it. put volunteers in it, you could make it work.

Again, this isn’t something just off the top of my head. I was in just such a shop in a small Loyalist town in Northern Ireland a few weeks ago. Where in the high street, … Of course, the high street’s been knackered by all the big supermarket chains, and so on. So most of the shops that aren’t estate agents are charity shops. And there’s one for Oxfam, and there’s one for the British Heart Foundation, and there’s one for some mission in Africa. And there’s one just for the locals.

And there’s a couple of old ladies there manning the shop and people bring their goods in and they buy and sell, like all the other charity shops. At the back of the charity shop there’s a gym! And that’s where all the youngsters go to get them off the streets, so the old ones were a bit nervous about youngsters on the streets, they’re happy, and the parents are happy, and the young lads are happy. And they’re in their boxing, and doing arts classes. And that was set up with far less money then would be thrown at trying to contest a parliamentary seat in that constituency, and losing!

[50:17]

Simon: But is it necessarily an either/or? Can’t you do these two things parallel? And secondly, if you’re talking about Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland hasn’t been quite as enriched as large parts of Britain have. So charity shops and community activities in anywhere within a reasonably large racial, or minority community, “minority” in inverted commas community would come under attack from the minorities and from the Left. And the Left, I imagine the Left would actually travel even if it was outside an urban area, would actually travel to cause trouble in that kind of, …

Nick Griffin: They probably would.

Simon: And I wouldn’t say it’s a bad idea, but what I’m saying is that we have to keep lots of options open. And the policies have to go in parallel. Because the big problem with the current liberal system, I personally don’t think the liberal system is going to collapse. What the liberal system is going to do, capitalism isn’t finished. The results of coronavirus are going to be a change in paradigm, and we’re going to move away from paper money, and it’s blockchain and crypto currency.

But, they will keep, the powers that be, will keep the cattle spending and living their miserable, soap-opera, materialistic lives, And, you know, they’re not going to bring about the disaster, because their well-being depends on everybody being consumers. But the big problem with the system that we live in is its completely counter to science. And more and more people are waking up to this transgender lunacy.

There are two things that the current liberal, social justice, ideology counters and one is racial reality, and sexual reality. We are different races. Everybody knows this! This is a difficult subject to broach. But if you live amongst people of other races, you know, this! And we are two different genders!

And you brought up earlier the idea of Labour taking back working class votes. Are Labour really, with David Lammy as it’s future foreign minister? I find that difficult to believe. A clean-cut, well presented, polite, educated, vanguard of young men — of which there are plenty — in the, well not plenty yet, of which there are growing numbers within the Patriotic Alternative ambiance, could definitely make an impact. I don’t think you can give up on this option, because giving up on this option is basically saying to young people, … there are fifteen-year-old kids — I actually didn’t go to the conference — but there’s a fifteen-year-old boy called Barkley, who’s in one of the chats, and there’s a another young guy called Harry. These young people need a future, and need to have hope! And it’s very, very difficult for them. I’m a year younger than you Nick. We’ve lived the best of our lives, so we can wax lyrical. But I’ve got a 25 year old daughter. I don’t, I simply don’t want to give up on this!

And also looking at the situation in Spain. Politics can change extremely quickly, admittedly in a proportional representation system. But a year ago, Vox — whatever you think about them, however  much (((kosherness))) they’ve got within them — went from nothing, to now 52 seats in the Spanish Congress! Things can turn around very, very quickly! And of those 52 seats — obviously every party is a complicated thing — but I think there are based and very true nationalists amongst the Vox ranks. Obviously not all of them, because this is politics. I don’t see why this can’t happen in Britain and many other European countries as well.

[54:43]

Nick Griffin: Well, in Britain, there’s a number of points you’ve raised there. I made a few notes, and I’ll try to get through them quickly.

As you say, in Spain there’s a PR system, in Britain there’s not. And that makes a huge difference to what can be done! You say that the Liberal system isn’t going to collapse I quite agree. I didn’t say the “liberal system” is going to collapse, I said “liberalism” is going to collapse. That soft, pappy, surrender mentality. That’s going to collapse, and that sort of splits two ways. The people running the liberal system, again will abandon all pretense of liberalism, and will become an openly naked totalitarian liberalism,  without a shadow of doubt.

And I’m saying that after the shit really has hit the fan, then the liberalism within our people is also is simply going to evaporate! That’s not saying the liberal system he’s going to collapse. There’ll be a vacuum. There won’t be a vacuum there’s a totalitarian regime and there’s a people who hate what’s going on.

Now you say that, if for instance, there was a charity shop, the Left, or the immigrants would attack it. Well if it had BNP over the door, or Patriotic Alternative, over the door, which it’s highly likely they would. There’s a bit of a “so what” about that, but I’m not saying that most of these things should be done under the name of any organisation. And, in fact, if I say that some people don’t want to come out under their own names as backing a political party, I think everyone accepts that is unfortunately the case. Then, if you have a much more diffused, broad-based, resistance, where there’s a thousand and one different things going on, then many people can do those different things in that own area, under their own name. And there is no need to connect it to a political party.

But if you are worried about the Left coming and attacking shops, or attacking something, then you have to accept that they won’t just attack shops. If a political party raises up and starts contesting elections, they will also come out on the streets and beat the crap out of their activists! That’s what happens. And the police will turn a blind eye, unless the nationalist organize to defend themselves, let alone carry some kind of makeshift weapon. In which case, they’re going down! They’re going to prison for a very long time! Because the state, the police, and the far left work together in all these things.

So yes, whatever we do, whatever these young men do, if it’s anything effective, the left is going to attack them! You can’t get away from that!

I think the key difference is if the Left come and attack a political party, a political meeting of political activists, or activists on the street, they’re not attacking the local people. They’re attacking — what the public seen is one bunch of political people attacking another bunch of political people. And either the Right, the nationalists get the crap beaten out of them, or they fight back, and then they become thugs! So really, that’s a lose-lose situation.

But if there’s a shop, some kind of charity operation, something providing amenities for local White working-class youngsters, and the Left come and attack that, then they’re not just attacking the people running that operation, they are attacking the whole community. At which point, I guarantee with any White working-class community in Britain it’s the Left that get the shit kicked out of them! Not by activists, but just by ordinary people. And I would regard that as a far, far, better thing.

And I’ve come back again. The problem you asked, is it really a matter of either/or? Can’t we do both? I would say the there’s only been one proper “Vanguard” party in British politics in recent history, and that is the Socialist Workers Party. And the experience the Socialist Workers Party was that you cannot build a vanguard party in their kind of community in the universities, and so on, and fight elections at the same time. And that’s even more so for a nationalist party which is under so much more pressure than the SWP ever would [be].

You have to make a choice! And you say:

“Don’t these young men deserve hope and all the rest of it?”

I’d say absolutely! But not false hope! It’s so irresponsible to sell false hope to people! And the electoral road is a false hope!

When there’s so many good things, you know, food banks, homeschooling, the Ulster bands, the Gaelic Athletic Association, an indigenous scouts group. You look at, you imagine yourself — okay this isn’t perhaps relevant to these younger ones are these now. But perhaps they’ve got younger brothers, or the slightly older ones, they’ve started to think about having kids and they look at how the young boys in the liberal society are brought up with the LGBT and all the rest of the poison thrust down their throats. So, organizations that used to be really important, that were part of the rites of passage, and the character building, and the education in a broad cultural sense of young White men in countries like Britain, is now, it’s absolute poison!

So we have to start to create our alternative structures. So an alternative Scouts for the indigenous. And they would need what to get that going? They’re need some simple uniform, they need some badges, you know, that each of the things that they pass. You know, whether it’s surviving a night out in the wild, or a basic grasp of British history, or air rifle marksmanship, whatever you decide to give them. Then the nationalist party should put some money into producing a ready-made, off-the-shelf, indigenous scout group.

[60:12]

And it doesn’t really matter how many young people go through that, because the parents who don’t put their young people through things like that, who don’t involve them in the nationalist movement, in its broadest sense, they and their offspring are going to vanish in the next forty years, because they’ll be lost to homosexuality, they’ll be lost to race-mixing, they’ll be lost to hopelessness, drugs, and suicide!

It’s only the tiny minority who start to do the right thing for themselves and for their families who will act as a beacon to attract other people who want to survive, to go and to get in with them.

And it doesn’t really matter how big that group is, or how small, that is the only group which is going to pass on its, our views, and our culture, and our identity, along through the generations. So, got to get on with that! And if you go in for the electioneering you simply dilute that and give people false hope. It’s a disaster not waiting to happen, it’s happening right now!

As I say, if Mark Collett is already quite close. He backtracked after I issued that audio recording of there’s no electoral road, he backtracked quite a lot. And saying:

“Yeah, well, we’re not really doing it now, and we’re doing lots of other things as well.”

Good! So I’m pushing here. And I’m gonna keep on pushing him to backtrack even further. And the minute he says:

“I accept there’s no electoral road and there’s so many other really good things we can be doing.”

Then he’ll have my support.

If he carries on telling people there is some electoral road, then while I know that many people have perhaps him and yourself Simon, I know you sincerely believe it, but it’s so wrong I will fight it tooth and nail until you see sense!

[61:59]

Simon: Horus?

Horus: I think there is a strong case to be made against the argument that there’s an electoral roads of power. I mean, in my wildest dreams there is such a route. But, and I would like to be Home Secretary! [chuckling] But I do think that, I mean, my own propaganda, if you could call it that, aims to attack what I call the “phony Right“. And I do think that we can have a role in helping to break apart the existing ruling class.

And unforeseen possibilities may emerge from that. I suppose this sounds rather wishful, you know, I’m hoping that fortune will deliver us opportunities. but, on the other hand, I would assume you wouldn’t rule out unforeseen circumstances, giving us opportunities that we can’t see now. What do you think of that?

Nick Griffin: Yeah, unforeseen circumstances, Covid 19 is one. A moderately nasty flu virus which for reasons which we haven’t got time to go into now has been promoted by the establishments of virtually the entire Western world, as some kind of catastrophic plague, which must be fought at the cost of almost totally destroying our economy!

Now, the impact that is not going to go away. And you talk about unforeseen circumstances, … if you saw in the papers yesterday little mention of the fact that all the church plates of the ancient historic silver of every Church in London has just been moved to the Tower of London for safekeeping, because they fear a massive looting spree! So they’re not thinking like Brixton riots, or the London riots of 2012, they’re thinking of a massive looting spree across the whole of the capital, where churches are looted as a matter of routine. So obviously, I’m not saying it’s going to happen, but I’m saying that even our pathetic elite, and even more pathetic police force, have realized that the destabilizing possibilities of what they’re doing under the guise of fighting a flu virus, are such that it could create absolute mayhem!

So yeah, there probably will be at some stage there’ll be more unforeseen circumstances, things happening. But you’ve got to assume that sort of accelerates the problems. And if you’re talking about coming to power, either through elections, or just through physical numbers, then it has to be, because some sort of crisis has really struck and relations between the different ethnic groups have collapsed into real bitter hatreds. And all of a sudden our people are forced onto one side and they’re all standing together. And at that point you’re in a civil war sort of position. And all our people won’t be standing together. Large sections of the left, a huge number of people will stand with them, not with us! And anyone doesn’t believe that needs to look at the way in which even lefty feminists, last year and the year before, was siding with rapists — to stop them being deported back to Afghanistan!

[65:07]

So the left will stand with them. When push comes to shove and there’s lots of violence, and believe you me that the sections of the immigrant community, sections of those communities, are far more violence than our people are. When they become violent and their numbers really start the show on the streets, and if White people came out on the streets, they’ll mostly be the football alliance type, 55, 60, year old, superannuated football hooligans, beer-bellied, unfit, and basically useless. And they’ll see those up against 20 year-old, fit, hard, young Pakistanis with radical Muslim leadership.

When people see what happens, which if it happens, not going to be:

“Oh, we’ll kick their asses!”

It’s going to be White people getting killed by the hundreds at the very least! When people see that, huge numbers will run and hide to will get away from it, and significant numbers will go and join the Muslims, because people join strength, and they join what they think are going to be the winners.

If the trouble really starts, it doesn’t create an opportunity for our people, it creates serious deaths amongst our people, surrender and cowardice!

So I hope that doesn’t happen. Because our people, if that happened tomorrow we would lose! As simple as that! And again, I’m afraid anyone who says otherwise is either totally out of touch with the reality of communal violence, or they’re just a braggart.

I’ve seen communal violence close up in the Brixton riots. I’ve seen it in Northern Ireland. And I can assure you that the British people are not, except for Ulster, the British people have not got the stomach, the backbone, or the organizational will, or experience, to win communal violence for control of our country even now, let alone in another 10 years time when the demographics are even worse!

As I said, there will come a time when once liberalism is beaten out of them, there will come a time when our people will be able to fight and they will win. But that time is not now! So therefore we need to set about doing something for the hearts and minds of a young generation to see them through the time of surrender and cowardice and out through to the other side.

[67:19]

Horus: The one thought that remains with me then, is let’s assume that we do get reduced to goodness knows, 40, 30, 20, percent of the population — we’ve no idea really how things are going to turn out, but we’re heading in that direction. Do you not expect that the government will become even more tyrannically anti-White and anti-British than it is now, and could actually not pursue a policy of full extermination, but try to crush us into, you know, atoms in every way it can?

Nick Griffin: Yes! Absolutely! And again I come back to the question, the analogy, or the contrast between how an attack on a local charity would be received by ordinary people compared to an attack on a political party. And the more pressure your communities under, the more it will be inclined to unite. And, so, yes, we’ll be under immense pressure! But what does that do? You look at the situation in Ireland, where 800 years of at times of literally genocidal violence against the Irish people by the forces of the English elites, whatever you want to call it, by the Brits, as they call it. The more genocidal they got, the more it produced resistance. and that’s what I see, you’re absolutely right!

As we become a minority, first of all we’re already abused and treated with contempt and we’re still a majority! As we become a minority the burdens, the tax burdens falling upon the working, constructive people, overwhelmingly still ours, will become unbearable! And at the same time, the violence against them and the violence used against anyone who resists, will become immense.

But there again, there’s a difference. As I said, before, because capitalism needs mass immigration now just to survive, anyone who tries to fight that politically is going to be crushed. People who fight it by organizing a club for ten, or twelve year olds, who learn to shoot air rifles, and then go out and shoot grey squirrels on behalf of the red squirrels [Horus sounding amused], the media might laugh about it, and the Left will say:

“All this is paramilitary retraining!”

That’s not going to be treated as seriously as a political party trying to stop all of this. And it will tend to go underneath the radar, and it’s far, far, more useful to the young people involved in that, than telling them:

“You needn’t worry about your future, because some stage in the future, someone will wave a magic electoral wand and everyone’s going to put it right!”

[70:01]

Horus: Yeah. Do you reject the idea that some people propose, I mean, it’s not even a proposal really. I think it’s really quiet a wild flailing resort. But some people think that there’ll be a sort of a readout established in the most relatively pro-White parts of Eastern Europe. Because I think that that sort of quasi solution sounds completely useless, because Hungary, Poland so and they were only going to allow a few of us to move there before it starts, you know, ruining things for them. Are you aware of this?

Nick Griffin: Yes, I’m aware of it. I’m banned from Hungary myself. [slight chuckle] But I’m aware of it. I think that there would only ever be a small minority who would be prepared to leave their homeland, unless they’re absolutely forced to as refugees in just what they stand up in. But I think it has a very important role to play for the whole of Western Europe. And one possible scenario, … There’s are really only two possible scenarios. We either decline into minority status along the bumbling road we’ve been on thus far, in which unless you happen to have your daughter being gang-raped by the usual suspects, then really, it’s not too bad and you can move away from it a little bit. You can sort of muddle through.

So, we go through that process until we’re a minority, and then things get worse. Or it happens in a sudden lurch with real communal violence. And if that happens quite significant numbers of people will end up abroad. And at that point, but people say they are running away.

Now if they run away and they’re not kept in touch with by some kind of emigre association, the sort of thing which a political party should be putting effort into, rather than trying to fight elections that it cannot possibly win, then at that point an emigre community becomes very valuable.

So large numbers of Irish people went to the United States and Shin Fein, IRA, could not run their very effective campaign of a combination of violence and politics, if it hadn’t been for the vast amounts of money coming in from the Irish community in the United States. And if it hadn’t been for the practical support they got there.

And whether you’re talking about completely, totally, peaceful approaches — things such as that is just this broadcast — once this is banned in Britain, when at some stage in the future it would be, I’ve no doubt at all, then not everyone has to move to Hungary, or Poland to be able to make broadcasts like this, and to get them back into Britain. So, bases abroad in Eastern Europe I think, it will be a redoubt for the resistance leadership right the way across Western Europe as we become a minority. Even if things remain basically peaceful.

And if violence is forced upon us, and there’s some very powerful groups out there not least the zionists and also the Islamist crazies, they want violence as well all over Europe. So they’re quite likely to get it. And if it become as a question of violence, then the idea that you can win a violent struggle, or even carry out a violent struggle in Britain, or France, or Germany, without having safe bases where people recuperate, where they can be trained, where they can learn what to do, and so on, it’s a nonsense. And that will surely only be Eastern Europe.

So I think that having some people in East Eastern Europe, whether we carry on along a peaceful road that we all want, or whether we’re forced onto a violent road, doesn’t matter which it is, we one day will be very, very grateful for those emigres in the East. But it’s not enough for everyone to go there, because the struggle for Britain is in Britain! The struggle for France is in France! The struggle for Spain will be in Spain, and so on.

[74:02]

Simon: Can I come back on? Given that I’m broadcasting from abroad and I’m an émigré! And just let me know when you need need to go, because I kind of expected us to go overtime, really. I think all of us are fully aware of the difficulty of the situation. And I mean, what I think needs to happen, there needs to be a change in the kind of cultural zeitgeist, the cultural identity of White Europeans, be they English, French. Where there’s a small group of us who are aware of who our race is.

One of the reasons why I’m not as, I don’t want to use the word negative, or pessimistic, but I think, you know what I mean, is that I’m a relatively recent convert, you know, this.

Nick Griffin: Yeah.

Simon: And yes, I now form part of what is a “vanguard“. But I lived through the whole of my life as what I’ve come to term a “default liberal“, a “default lefty“.

And it was when I saw, … it was actually a very clear moment, and I’ll explain it very quickly. I had been visiting the cathedral in a town in central Catalonia called Manresa. And it was kind of beautiful medieval architecture. And we were deciding whether to go and visit the cave where Ignatius of Loyola founded the Jesuits, or go for a beer. And me and the missus decided to go for a beer. And we took some steps down behind the cathedral, because I know in these Catalan towns, I know where to find a good bar! And instead of finding a good bar, we came across a Muslim ghetto.

And for me the contrast — this was summer of 2015 — and for me though the contrast was so, …!  That’s when I woke up! That’s when I realized that the invasion was happening. Now, I think lots and lots of people are going to go through this. And obviously, I’m not in there in Britain, so I can’t perceive, I only perceive secondhand from other PA friends, Patriotic Alternative friends, what’s going on. But I can see this — you talked about Western Europe — I can see this happening in Spain.

Spain has an old, very established Right, they’ve talked about, people still talk about the two Spain’s, the Republican Spain and the Nationalist Spain from the Spanish Civil War, the Francoist Spain. This isn’t dead! And the younger generation have been completely cucked, completely brainwashed, very, very quickly! But given that it’s happened so quickly, there’s a resistance that’s never gone away. All they have to do, really, is fully wake up. And not all of them are as clued in on many of the issues as we are, but they definitely are nationalists, and there they will oppose the immigration, and that they will react! I personally don’t see why a similar class of people — as both of you live in Britain — why a similar reaction can’t take place in Great Britain.

[77:27]

Nick Griffin: Oh I think you’re right. There is potentially a big difference between Spain and perhaps also Italy, and the nations in northwestern Europe. And the key difference is that if you went back even 20 years, perhaps even 10 years, effectively there weren’t any of the others in any significant numbers at all in Spain, or Italy. They haven’t sunk roots there.  Most of Spain’s immigrants are rather badly behaved South America mestizos. That’s not the same as the Africans now coming in, as the Muslims with a hard core Islamist agenda at the very core, not of all of them, at the core of their community — thanks mainly to Saudi money and the treachery of the world’s [words unclear] elites and the (((people))) who opened the gates of Toledo, and the (((people))) who still don’t still open the gates.

But Spain is different. They haven’t been there very long, so it makes it, potentially, that if push comes to shove and things start to get nasty, they’ll simply leave.

The question of Britain, Germany, places like this, it’s completely different! You are dealing with people who’ve been here, in many cases three generations. They do feel that they belong here, and whether they do, or not, that’s how they feel. And you’re not going to move them. And they’re far better organized and more deep-rooted. And they would fight to keep their communities, and the Brits would run a mile from what they saw as a result.

You said Simon you’ve been involved a few years. So I’m not pulling rank here, it’s just a fact. I joined the National Front at the age of 15, in 1974. I have been active basically ever since, constantly reading, studying, thinking, experiencing things. and I know from having seen two political parties very close up, and UKIP as a sort of an interesting outsider, completely, I know what it takes to build a political party that begins to challenge for power. I can tell you that there’s no possibility on this earth at such a party being built in Britain and getting the experience that becomes effective in less than 10 years! By which stage, it’s not in, … the key flaw to the electoral alternative is this.  Let’s come to the very core of it! It’s when the Patriotic Alternative position is that will still be the majority until 2066. We still got time to turn things around.

It’s a sort of, I use the term in my monologue on this Democratic fetishism. It’s saying that one vote is the same as any other vote when it comes to determining the future of a nation. And it might be true in votes. But it’s not true in people! Because in 10 years time the average Brit will be age what in terms of vast numbers? Sixty? Real Brit. And the average young Muslim, or young African, will be aged about 20!

And deciding who’s gonna rule a country is not about votes in the end, it’s about physical force! It’s about who, when push comes to shove, controls the streets, who frightens the elite most, if the elites neutral? Who frightens the police? Because the police always back the side which is most noisy, most violent, and giving the most trouble. And they squish the other side. And in ten years time there is no doubt about it, that the streets of Britain will be run by young Muslims and blacks who converted to Islam, as the best way of hitting back at the hated White man!

And there’s no possibility of anything other than that happening! It’s already in the demographics! It’s already happening. You look at the schools, and you look at the old people’s homes. And that’s what’s going to happen in Britain. There’s no way around it! So stop! Please people! Stop the electoral business, and get on we’re building a political movement which can organize our people to be a really effective force as they become a minority! So that even though with a minority, we are the minority who dominate this country, and decide what it’s future is.

So you have to understand the minority that really rules Britain at present. You can’t run away from that. You can’t go down the Anne Marie Waters’ [For Britain Movement] even worse fantasy politics line, and saying:

“Well, I want Britain to remain a majority, but we’re not going to force anybody out. It will happen somehow.”

You can’t do that, but neither can you pretend that there’s any political solution to the problem that we are now in!

[82:07]

Simon: I beg to differ! I think, again looking at the way that the way Britain is organized, although White people will become a minority ultimately in the country. [Only if present trends continue, etc.] There will be large areas, a little bit like in the United States, the difference between the largely diverse and liberal major cities and the, … the blue liberal major cities with large minority populations and the red countryside. Surely this is what’s going to happen in Britain?

And so London, Manchester, Birmingham, the various major cities, will become completely dominated by people of other races as White flight continues. But that equally means that White people do have a bolt hole, and the divisions between the two communities — I don’t like the word “communities” — but the insiders, the indigenous British and the foreigners, the contrast will become greater over a period of time.

Nick Griffin: Yup.

Simon: And even more so as the countryside becomes Whiter, because also what will happen as things racinate, as this division grows, people of different ethnicities will be less, and less, welcome amongst White communities. So the divisions will be very, very clear. That means that in certain areas, and as things get worse, in certain areas certain people will be very aware of how bad things are. At the moment one of the problems is that people in majority White areas don’t know what Birmingham, or the East End of London, are like. So, I saw you on an interview talking about the air wind mills in Frodsham* as I was researching this program. And Frodsham was where I spent my adolescence.

[*Frodsham Wind Farm is one of England’s largest onshore generating stations, and the largest in the Cheshire region, with an installed capacity of more than 50 MW.]

Now all my family in Frodsham are dreadful lefty liberals! Because they’ve only seen the one nice black man who runs the sweet shop. They’ve got no real idea of what the hell-holes that certain parts of Britain have already become. But as things move into the future the understanding of those differences will be greater. And those White areas will become more racinated, so more fertile ground for a pro-White nationalist party than they were in your day.

[85:11]

Nick Griffin: I’d say, in fact, that, I live in Shropshire* now, and rather than people not understanding how bad things are, they understand exactly how bad things are! Even in a small village there’s a number of Brahmins, black country people, Londoners here, precisely because they know how bad it is. And they tell their neighbors, and their neighbors do go shopping in Telford, and so on. They know exactly how bad it is. They don’t need convincing it’s bad, they need convincing that there’s some kind of hope!

[* Shropshire County is located in central England midway between the city of Birmingham and the Welsh Border.]

And the hope has to be winning victories, and doing things that are worthwhile. Again it comes down to [word unclear] elections. I’m working on an unplugged computer and I’m quite low now on my battery charge. So not only have I got to go, but I’m also going to get cut off fairly soon. But to try and finish this piece off.

Yes, I grew with you entirely that in the more remote and rather more rural parts you will tend to get a certain sort of redoubt mentality, amongst our people. But again, it’s what you do with it. I think there’s a misunderstanding, people think that politics comes out of a ballot box, or out of political power, it doesn’t! Political change is the thing that comes after cultural change. Political change is merely a register, a change that’s already happened in terms of how a population thinks and how it’s organized.

So even if you do want to believe in hope in a political road, before you can think that there’s any chance of winning a political road, you actually have to have really solid communities, and your activists have to be embedded in those communities. Those that people get elected.

So, rather than trying to fight an election and then somehow magically making yourself popular. It’ll be far, far, better if young nationalists take the far easier road, in fact, in terms of not getting themselves sacked from college, or rounded up by the police, and so on, if they get into things like food banks, into helping homeschooling operations, into running events, and a charity, and a club for local youngsters, and so on.

If they get into those things and build a community base, then it’s actually far easier if you do decide that circumstances have radicalized so much that you can actually win a majority in a whole local council, and then use the local council to go up against the state to make a point, which the Labour Party did in the 70s. [Words unclear] haven’t got time to talk about it now, look up Clay Cross, the Labour Party had the whole council which insisted on defying the Tory laws to build more council houses. Made them absolute heroes to their people.

So, if you’ve really built a solid base, and then the opportunity does arise to win a whole council and take control of it, it might be worth doing. What I’m saying is that if people are thinking that’s the way ahead they’ll not put in the work that’s needed to win that community support in the first place. And that is why elections, the fantasy of electoral victory is so dangerous, because it stops people doing not just what we need to do to survive, but also ironically what you need if you were going to win in elections at some later stage in the future.

[88:32]

Simon: Okay. Well I think I’m sure we’ll just discuss this some point in the future.

Nick Griffin: I’m going to go. I think, …

Simon: I know you have to go. So thanks thanks very much for coming on the show. You’ve given me a lot to think about. And yeah, I definitely want to mull this over. And perhaps if you’re still in your flurry of interviews and getting involved again, perhaps you’ll come back and we can have a second go. I might have changed my opinion. But I don’t definitely want to look more closely into this. And I agree with you. I think you’ve come up with, … I mean, a lot of the ideas are very valid. I’m just loath to close the electoral route.

Nick Griffin: I can understand that! I appreciate your time, Simon and Horus, also your listeners. And I’ll look forward to hearing to what the response is. Do keep on mulling it over, and I’d be delighted to come back, either to carry on this discussion, or, we haven’t even discussed coronavirus which is a huge unexpected circumstance. And that’s not, that thing and problem isn’t going to go away, so happy to come back and discuss that, or whatever questions your listeners want to hear answers. So, again Simon, Horus, thank you very much! I’ll speak to you again, I hope fairly soon.

[89:52]

Horus: Thanks very much.

Simon: Look after yourself.

Nick Griffin: Bye.

Horus: If Nick was staying for a few more minutes what I would have picked up on,  one of the things he said near the end which was that political change follows cultural change, which I think most people would agree with. What has given me optimism in the last, maybe six months, is that there does feels like — you can never really tell — but it feels like there is quite a rapid cultural change taking place. I think you were alluding to that earlier as well.

One thing I think Unwashed has been brilliant at the last few months is just his clear focus on destroying “the fence“, i.e., the deliberate, absolutely sometimes like quite obnoxious, and polarization, just forcing people to say:

“Do you want our country destroyed, or not? Take a goddamn side and stop being a goddamn coward!”

And things like that, I believe are almost infinitely profitable, I mean, up to a point! I suppose that’s not infinite, … There’s a huge amount of profit in power terms, to be had from fighting a cultural war in that sense. And especially in fighting the “phony Right“.

And when we talk about places, I mean, you were saying that countryside obviously becomes ever more important to us, and the sad thing about the countryside at the moment is they just absolutely, routinely, vote Tory! And the Tories obviously are the ones who are importing all these Somalians and Afghans, and so on!

If we can, and I know it’s the tallest order in the world, but if we can break the Tory party apart, and destroy that option, remove that option from them, or just make it 10 times harder to just routinely turn up at the ballot box and always take blue, you could suddenly find mainly places like Huntingshire, or Shropshire wanting an alternative! It doesn’t have to be PA.

I mean, maybe PA just doesn’t have the resources to have a presence in every part of the country. Certainly not yet. But, a Patriotic Alternative but with small P, small A,  is it going to come into demand. Which is why — I know I’m bored about this — but I return again, and again, again, to just saying that my aim is to destroy the Tories! To destroy the phony Right! And especially to destroy the Left of the Tories, who always control the party. And I just see so many opportunities would open up if we could just get rid of these phony conservatives!

And this is why, I have that series of videos I started with called “The Infolding of the Right“. Was just to say:

“We are ruled by people who call themselves conservatives, but who make common cause with the Left!”

I know it’s not all about, you know, not everything bad that happens is because of Marxism, and so on. That would be deluded! But there is a huge amount to be gained from making people realize that the Tories are the ones with their hands around our throats!

And the more people where we can just force to abandon them, conceptually I’m saying, by arguments, really. And by rancor, and by clamor! Or just by any agitation we can affect whatsoever against the phony right! I just see this so much to be gained for it! This is sort of what I was alluding to when I said “unforeseen circumstances“. Yeah for, suppose things like Coronavirus, but also just some kind of accident by the Tories, that gives some opening! Just to say:

“Look!”

You know, it’s really hard to say exactly what form that will come in. But I mean, do you get what I’m saying here?

Simon: Yeah. We didn’t know about Coronavirus, either, did we? And he was saying that people these people will go back and vote Labour. I don’t think they will. Some will, but Labour has become more, and more, ridiculous. I mean, I’ll be honest with you, … I really was a big deal new PS we’ve been in labor.

Horus: It really was a big deal for them to abandon Labour. It was really was a big deal! But some will slide back!

[94:11]