[Very informative and entertaining interview by Jim Rizoli with Fred Leuchter and the story about his experiences as he became a “reluctant Revisionist“, due to his expertise in designing execution equipment for US prison systems.
Called in by Ernst Zundel’s legal team as an expert witness Fred went to Europe to conduct tests and gather evidence on the feasibility of the alleged German gas chambers in Poland and elsewhere.
As a result he wrote up a document that became known as the “Leuchter Report” that concluded that the alleged gas chambers could not have been used as gas chambers. This eventually led to Fred being hounded and persecuted by Jews that ruined his career as an engineer — KATANA.]
Click on the above link to watch the video.
NOTE: Transcript kindly provided by Diane King.
His Story, His Way
September 29, 2015.
Fred Leuchter, who wrote The Leuchter Report, is interviewed by League of Extraordinary Revisionists Co-Founder, Jim Rizoli.
Introductory Remarks by Jim Rizoli
Fred Leuchter Becomes Mr. Death
The Persecution Begins
Being Followed by Mossad Agents
Temporary Work in California
Unemployable as an Engineer, Fred Drives Buses
Fred’s Electrical Mechanical Design Work
The Ernst Zundel Trial
Studying the “Gas Chamber” Material
Taking Samples at Auschwitz
Testimony in the Ernst Zundel Trial — The Leuchter Report
The German Government’s Plot to Get Fred Leuchter
Taken at Gunpoint by German Police
In a German Prison for 3 1/2 months
Back in America and Warned Not to Return to Germany
Daily Life for Fred in the German Prison
His Visit to Stonehenge
Arrested in England and Given the Third Degree
Some Background on Zyklon B
Why the So-called “Gas Chambers” Couldn’t Have Worked
The Kremas at Auschwitz
Treblinka, David Irving and Mark Weber
B’nai B’rith Say that Leuchter Built the Gas Chambers at Auschwitz!
The Real Holocaust of Firing Bombing German Cities
The Leuchter Report and Germar Rudolf
Why Fred Got Involved and Would He Do It Again?
Fred’s Recent Activity
The Current State of Affairs Regarding Executions in the USA
Fred’s Family Background and the Revolutionary War
Colonel Prescott and Bunker Hill, 1775
Recent US Presidents and Obama
Concluding Remarks by Jim Rizoli
Version History & Notes
Jim Rizoli (JR): Hi everyone, this is Jim Rizoli.
This is part of RizoliTV and we have a special feature of our show tonight with Dr. Fred Leuchter. He is going to talk a little bit about where he has been since his days back in the 1980s with Ernst Zundel and all those type of things there. We are going to learn a lot about him. Should be very informative for you. So, I want to welcome Fred to the show here.
[Image] Fred Leuchter being interviewed by Jim Rizoli.
Fred Leuchter (FL): Thank you.
JR: Nice to have you here. This is a real special occasion for me anyway, because when I think of all these revisionists, … Well, first of all, would you call yourself a revisionist?
FL: I do now. I didn’t 25 years ago.
JR: Okay. But when you think about all the revisionists that are out there, especially the ones publishing and writing, you probably are one of the most famous ones.
FL: I think that’s probably true and in those days after I had been to Auschwitz, after I had testified in court, I considered myself a reluctant revisionist. Now after the Jews beating on my head for 20 years, I’m not reluctant any more. [laughing]
JR: [laughing] Well, we’re going to get into all that, so don’t worry. But what I want to get an understanding of you is, … I remember watching the video, “Mr. Death”.*
*[NOTE: His original moniker and the one favored by Fred is “Doctor Death”. This was apparently considered too prestigious by the director of the video and with his desire to present Fred in an unfavorable light was switched to “Mr. Death”.
JR: And in that video, … I might even play the last clip of the video, … But, in that video it shows you at the end, walking down the street.
[Image] Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. (1999) “A cinematic portrait of the life and career of the infamous American execution device designer and holocaust denier.” STARS: 7.5/10 Director: Errol Morris Starring: Fred A. Leuchter Jr. as himself; Robert Jan Van Pelt as himself; David Irving as himself; Caroline Leuchter as herself; James Roth as himself – (Analytical Chemist); Shelly Shapiro as herself; Suzanne Tabasky as herself; Ernst Zündel as himself. Runtime: 91 min.
JR: Now, that always interested me, because now I know you, and I met you. I always wondered, what happened to that man walking down the street in that video. [chuckling] See what I’m saying?
[Image] Closing scene from the video, “Mr. Death”.
And again, that video was done, … What year was that done, do you remember?
FL: Ninety six …?
JR: Okay, say in the middle 1990s. So that’s 20 years ago.
[Image] Closing scene from the video, “Mr. Death”.
JR: So from that time period, you’re walking down the street, … We knew nothing about you. No one knew anything, what happened to you, where have you been, where have you lived? I didn’t even know that you were even living in Massachusetts.
So, basically, I would like to get into that. What happened since then to you and all the things that have transpired from that? So, that’s what I want to get into. So, maybe you can give us a little background of what happened from that time onward.
[Image] Fred and Jim, getting into the interview.
FL: Before I do that, I’d like to comment on something. I was at a revisionist meeting a number of years ago, … Well after everything had happened. I didn’t speak that time, but I got up on the podium because Willis Carto introduced me. And I got up and a number of people had told me that they thought I had died.
JR: Oh, wow!
FL: They had read some place, or what have you, and I quoted Mark Twain at that time from the podium. And I told them that — how was it that he worded it:
“Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated.”
[Image] Fred and Jim, having a laugh over the Mark Twain reference.
JR: You said that at the meeting!
FL: Yes! Anyway, after I testified in court, my life essentially was turned upside down. I was put through hell. I was prosecuted in court on a spurious charge as practicing as an engineer without a license. And one doesn’t need a license, I don’t believe in any single state, to be an engineer. You only have to have a license if you certify blueprints! I didn’t do that.
I was persecuted. My friends threatened. I lost job offers. I was effectively put out of business in my execution equipment, because the Department of Corrections was afraid to deal with me.
[Image] Fred describing his ordeal.
People that worked for the state, particularly the Department of Corrections, … They were political animals and they were afraid. I had one warden, … I was at a convention in the Midwest. It was actually in Missouri, and I walked into the coffee shop at the hotel and there was a big curved coffee bar in the center. And I sat down opposite him and I looked at him and I waved. He looked at me. He got up and he walked out of the room!
When I got back to my room, I had a phone call and his secretary had called me, so I called him back and she said:
“Warden so-and-so wanted me to apologize.”
“But there’s been so much political pressure.”
That she said he was afraid to be in the same room with you.
JR: Oh, wow!
FL: It was terrible! I had my house fire bombed. I had my friends threatened.
I was even followed by two Mossad agents, who came over from Israel specifically to follow me around during the time of my trial. I was informed by my cousin, who had been informed by the gentleman, who was the head of the Massachusetts State Police, … And when we were younger, we grew up and we played with the gentleman who was the head of the state police. At any rate, he called my cousin. He says:
“Because of the fact that Freddy is facing the court now, I can’t communicate with him. He says, but I would like you to get a message to him. We have been advised by the State Department and by the CIA and by the FBI, that there were two Mossad agents in Malden. We don’t know what they’re doing, but they’re being watched.”
Well, I was unaware of this until she told me, … And for about 3 or 4 days, I was being followed and I didn’t know why I was being followed.
Well, at any rate, after I found out the day following that, I was being followed again by a vehicle with tinted windows. I think it was a Cadillac or some such thing. and I got into a semi-rural part of Malden and they followed me up the hill and I spun my car out and blocked the road!
At that point, I got out of the car and I went up to the window and I pounded on the window of the driver’s side. The gentleman rolled the window down. There were two very dark-complected, I guess they were Jews from Israel. They could have been Arabs. They were middle eastern types. At that point, I reached inside my jacket and I pulled out a 45-caliber pistol and I touched his nose with it and I asked him what he wanted!
[Image] Leuchter confronts some jewish agents who were following him.
Well, the two gentlemen in the car, as dark-complected as they were, turned white! [Jim chuckling] And the next thing I know, they put the car into reverse, floored it, went up over the curb, hit somebody’s fence, spun around and took off down the street from whence they came.
And, I guess, they didn’t want some kind of an incident because I was legally carrying a firearm. I was legally protecting myself. They wouldn’t have looked too good in the news media and the police.
JR: Oh, absolutely!
FL: And if they are foreign agents of a foreign government, following somebody around, …
JR: Yes, yes!
FL: So that was the last I saw of them. I think they finally figured that I was a little too crazy to deal with.
JR: What year was that, about?
FL: About 1993, 1994. It was before I went to California.
FL: At any rate, I decided, because I had a job offer in California, … So I decided to go to California.
My ex-wife didn’t want to go, and she stayed behind; and subsequently, I went out there on my own, and that’s where I met my current wife.
JR: What did you do for work out there?
FL: Well, I went out to a company, … A man who ran a computer company, and he asked me to do some design work for him. While I was working for him, doing design work, … He was a Jewish gentleman, and he didn’t care about my background, or so he said. But the fellow who was funding him owned the building found out I was down there and I think he kind of pulled the plug on everything. They locked me out of my office and I was essentially standing on the street with no place to go.
I was only there for 3 or 4 months. So, at that point, I had already met my wife, Terri, and I stayed with her, and we got an apartment. I came back before Christmas. I went back to Pennsylvania because a fellow whom I had worked for before had offered me a job. He needed some design work done on a communications device. Which I did.
FL: Then we moved from there. I brought Terri and the kids to Pennsylvania and then from Pennsylvania, we moved back to Boston.
FL: I’m unemployable as an engineer. Nobody wants me because they’re afraid of me. And I was never able to be employed again as an engineer. I went to work as a driver in a homeless women’s shelter, … After I finished there, … Most of these places don’t keep you very long, because they don’t want to give you a raise. You work 2 years and then they find some reason to let you go. Generally, it’s; “we don’t have any more work”.
So, I went from there. I went to a company that took former drug and alcohol abusers to halfway houses and I was there for a couple of years and then from there, they let me go again because it was time for a raise And I went from there, I worked for a company that was an adjunct to the transportation system in the greater Boston area, called The Ride, and was taking older people and handicapped to doctor’s appointments, etc. After I was there for 6 years, it was time for another raise and they determined that I shouldn’t be there, so they let me go.
JR: What I’d like to ask you now is — that happened since then — but maybe you can tell the people watching this, … Your tie-in with the revisionist movement, with the Zundel case. And maybe you can explain to how all that happened to you. That’s how you really got drawn into all this.
FL: Yes. I had been working as an engineer for some 35 years or so. I had basically been designing navigational equipment. I have several patents for surveying equipment. Many of the people watching have probably seen the surveyors out on the street with what they call a “Total Station”; it’s that big yellow or orange transit that they now use, which digitizes all the information and essentially it does all the drawings and everything, so it took a great deal of work off the surveyor. I designed the device that transmits the motions of the telescope both horizontally and vertically into digital information so it can be utilized by a computer.
[Image] An example of a Total Station used by surveyors and builders.
I never was able to do anything with that because the Swiss and the Japanese came over here. They paid $5 for a copy of my patent and they proceeded to make instruments, based on my patent.
FL: My pockets essentially weren’t deep enough to engage in litigation.
JR: So that’s basically what they do. They will just buy a patent and then they’ll make it and they have millions of dollars. You have no money. They have the device.
FL: My patent attorney told me that if I didn’t have a half a million dollars to throw down the tube initially, don’t even start. I didn’t have that kind of money. The patents were expensive. My last patent cost me $89,000.
JR: Your name wouldn’t be associated with that patent at all.
FL: Well, it’s on the patent but not on the instruments. My father worked in the Massachusetts Correctional System for over 40 years. And they passed a law in Massachusetts reinstating the electric chair.
One of the officials at the state prison asked my father if I would come down and meet with them because he knew I was an electrical engineer, and quite frankly, they needed help in making their equipment functional. I met with them and I talked with them and like everything else, the job kind of stalled because things always occur 3 or 4 or 5 years after the legislation is passed, but at least they knew what they were doing.
A year afterwards, they passed legislation, eliminating the death penalty in Massachusetts, so we have none and we had none the year following that. However, because I had talked with the Massachusetts system, my name was passed around the other states that utilized capital punishment. And they began contacting me and I began supplying bits and pieces of hardware until I was asked by the state of New Jersey to design a lethal injection machine, and I designed the machine, supplied the machine not only to New Jersey but to several other states. I supplied an electric chair to the state of Tennessee.
JR: Do you have a patent on that?
FL: No. There’s not a big enough market to warrant that.
FL: Because of that, I also consulted with a number of states on their gas chamber. I consulted with Mississippi, I consulted with California; but at any rate, I consulted with Missouri. Zundel’s first trial had been set aside, and they were retrying him again and they were getting ready to go to trial and Dr. Robert Faurisson, who was an expert on WWII literature — when I say literature — I’m talking about documentation that was generated during the war by the powers that were fighting. He had been in touch with Ernst Zundel, and he told Zundel that the only way you are going to be able to do anything is you’re going to have to get an expert on gas chambers to come in and talk about the alleged gas chambers (and I say alleged because that’s important) that were in Auschwitz and then Birkenau and in any of the other facilities.
And since this was the case, they spoke with the court. The judge tentatively authorized them to find an expert. Dr. Faurisson’s next contact was with the United States to find out who made execution equipment. Everybody sent them to me. Well before they contacted me, he had a very long conversation with Bill Armontrout, who was the warden and later became the Commissioner of Correction in Missouri. And he was then directed to contact me.
[Image] Bill Armontrout.
I was contacted, a little surreptitiously at first because he asked me questions about my background and then he asked what I thought of the holocaust and the gas chambers that we used to kill all the jews during WWII. I said:
“Well, I don’t anything about it.”
“Well do you believe that they existed?”
And I said:
“Well, yeah, I guess so. They taught me that in school.”
At any rate, the court approved me as an expert, tentatively. I was brought to Toronto. I met with Doug Christie and Zundel and his legal team in 1988. I was given a lot of documentation. I had to do a lot of studying on the alleged concentration camps because I came in really “wet behind the ears”. I didn’t know what was going on.
[Image] Zundel (front right) solving the 6 million riddle with Fred Leuchter (second from left), Dr. Faurisson (left), Ditlieb Felderer and one other person, 1988]
After I got all of this information absorbed, I did a lot of studying on it. I also had a study on crematoria. I had to find out how long it took to cremate a body with coal, how long it took to cremate a body with oil today. And there was a lot of material that I had to study as would any engineer that was doing a job.
They then cleared me to go to Poland. I told Ernst Zundel that if I found the facilities could have been execution facilities, I would report that as such in my report. I told him that whether or not I found evidence, if I found that they could have done it, I would also report that. And Zundel said:
“I’m satisfied that you’re going to come back and going to believe that there were no gas chambers.”
So, I went to Poland. When I got to Poland, I was just totally amazed. I mean the whole thing was a joke! There were no gas chambers! The facilities that were supposed to have been gas chambers were no more than rooms with leaky windows and leaking doors. If you ever tried to use one for a gas chamber, you would have killed yourself while you were killing whoever was in the chamber. They said that there was equipment removed. There was nothing removed, because from the design standpoint, there’d have to be holes in the walls, holes in the ceiling, holes in the floors. You have to have places where you had fans, ducts. None of that was removed and none of that was patched up. The stuff just didn’t exist.
[Image] Samples being taken from a wall at Auschwitz.
So, I wrote a report and I stated that I felt the facilities there in Poland not only were not gas execution facilities, but could not have been made into gas execution facilities, and I returned. I wrote the report. I testified in court. Now, when we got into court, it was really an interesting situation because the judge didn’t want to admit the report, and this is the copy of the report — this is the original report.
[Image] A copy of the original report submitted to the court.
There were three of them. I had one and Zundel had one and the court has the other one. At any rate, the judge refused to accept it as a report, even though he accepted the fact that I was qualified to do the report.
[Image] The first “Leuchter Report” with a forward by Dr. Robert Faurrisson.
So, what we had to do, I had to take the stand and for over 3 days, I was questioned by Doug Christie and everything in the report was entered into the record verbally. I read it from the report and I qualified it by explaining what everything meant.
JR: Did you read the whole thing, or just part of it.
FL: No, I was only allowed to read the parts relevant to the gas chamber. That’s where the interesting part comes. The court found that I was an expert on execution equipment. It couldn’t deny that because I was certified by the federal court system in the United States. But, I wasn’t an expert on crematoria, so therefore, none of my numbers on the crematoria could be entered into the record by me. Doug Christie then sought out and got the top expert in Canada on crematories. That gentleman was given a copy of the report, and he read it.
JR: Do you remember his name?
FL: No I don’t. His name is available, but I don’t remember it, …
JR: Isn’t his name Ivan Lagace?
[Image] Ivan Lagace, a crematory expert from Calgary, Alberta. Ivan Lagacé was the fourteenth witness called by the defence. He testified on Tuesday, April 5 and Wednesday, April 6, 1988. He resigned from his job as crematory director after receiving endless threats by anonymous callers and from thugs claiming to be the Jewish Defense League.
FL: I think so. Yes.
JR: Ivan Lagace?
FL: Yes, I think so. And he did what I couldn’t do or what the court wouldn’t allow me to do — he read my report into the court record, verbatim! So no matter how you slice it, the judge didn’t want it, but he got it all!
FL: And unfortunately, he choked on it. He found Ernst guilty and, subsequently, the Supreme Court in Canada overturned the verdict of the second trial.
JR: So, he really didn’t go to jail. He more or less was out waiting for the last verdict.
FL: Yes. But fortunately, they eventually got him.
JR: Well, yes, that’s another thing.
FL: Subsequent to my going to Poland and then to Canada, Ernst Zundel’s defense team sent me back to Europe again to examine other facilities: Dachau, Hartheim Castle, Mauthausen. While I was on that trip and the prime reason for my going on that trip, so I would be available in Germany to be “voir dired”. That’s a legal term, Latin. It means that they question you and your background to determine whether you’re competent, and I was questioned by two judges on the Superior Court of Bavaria, and they determined after 3 days of questioning, that I was competent to testify in a German court on the existence of gas chambers. And that was important because that was something that they were never able to do before. Get the question of the gas chambers before the court. And after I was qualified, I then left and I went to look at the other facilities and I, subsequently, wrote reports on them for Ernst. And the reports were available through the Zundel website.
But, after doing that, while I was in Germany, I spoke at a number of locations — spoke only about what I did in terms of my investigation for the court — only spoke about how I was persecuted by the jews afterwards, how they fire bombed my house, how the Mossad chased me and all of the information that we’ve already talked about.
[Images] Fred Leuchter taking samples the the ruins of the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz for later chemical analysis in the U.S.
After I had returned to the United States, I didn’t realize it and unbeknownst to me, they were plotting in Germany, certain parties were plotting in Germany to bring me back and charge me with breaking the law. And the law that I broke was called, “defaming the dead”. And you defamed the dead by saying that the gas chambers didn’t exist. Now, I was very careful about everything I said in Germany, so I never said that the gas chambers didn’t exist. I said my testimony in Canada was that the gas chambers didn’t exist and how I was persecuted. But I was very careful never to violate German law.
JR: Wouldn’t they have arrested you there if you said something.
FL: Probably. But, you see the problem was I was never arrested. I was contacted by a television show called the Schreinemacher Show. It’s a woman TV personality. Her name is Frau Schreinemacher. She has a show in Cologne, Koln, as the Germans call it, television show. And the Germans are crazy for information about the elektrischer Stuhl, which was the electric chair. I was asked to come over and talk about the electric chair. I made it very clear to the people that contacted me, her writers and her producers that I would not discuss the “holocaust”. I would not discuss the gas chambers at Auschwitz or what have you. I would only discuss the electric chair and its application in the United States. That’s what she wanted.
But unbeknownst to me again, she made a deal with the police in Mannheim, Germany. I didn’t know this. I arrived and just before I went on camera, I was approached by three German police officers from Mannheim. One of them spoke English — not well, but his English was better than my German. The other two gentlemen didn’t speak any English at all. And I was told that I was going to have to go back to Mannheim with them and face trial in Mannheim because of what I said about the gas chambers. And I said:
“What have I said and where have I said it?”
Well, I said it in Canada. I said:
“How do you get jurisdiction in Canada.”
“I’m an official of the court. How do you interfere with the legal system in Canada?”
Well, it didn’t seem to make any difference. I said:
“All right, I assume you have a warrant. Let me see your warrant.”
“Well, we don’t have a warrant.”
“What do you mean, you don’t have a warrant!”
“How do you expect to make an arrest?”
“Well, we’re not making an arrest.”
“Then what are you doing?”
“We’re going to take you back to see a judge in Mannheim.”
“Like hell, you’re going to take me back to see a judge in Mannheim.”
“I came over here to be on a television show.”
At which point, he pulled his Walther 380 out and stuck it in front of my face and told me that I would be required to go back. I said:
If that’s the case, I not going to argue. I can stop a 380 like anybody else could. I didn’t feel like being dead.
So I was handcuffed at that point and I was taken across three states by police officers that were violating their own laws; I was essentially kidnapped, not arrested.
And Schreinemacher threw a fit! Because she told the cops:
“You promised he could be on television, and now you’re taking him before he is.”
“Sure, let me on television.”
I was about to tell the world on her national hookup that I was being kidnapped at gunpoint and they weren’t about to let that happen.
So, at any rate, we drove through half the night and I wound up getting fingerprinted, mug shots taken — first time that ever happened to me and probably the last time it would ever happen to me, and I was thrown in a cell. The following morning, I was taken from there to the courthouse and the information of my being taken, and I don’t want to say arrest, but nobody knew I wasn’t arrested except me and my ex-wife, because she was there.
And, at any rate, I was taken to the court and Zundel had made arrangements for an attorney to come, and the attorney made an argument, but it didn’t do any good. The judge just threw me into a cell at the Mannheim Prison. They have a wing of unconvicted, that are awaiting trial and that’s where I wound up. Judge Bauer, incidentally, was Jewish. I explained to him and I complained to him that I was taken without a warrant. He said:
“It doesn’t matter.”
I got you here now.”
So, at any rate, I was thrown into a cell and I spent some 3-1/2 months. The attorney that I first had was Zundel’s attorney, and I subsequently, was put in touch with another attorney, who handled my case from thereon out — Hajo Hermann, whom I believe has subsequently passed away [in 2010]. Hajo Hermann had very strong feelings about people that were held and put in prison for “thought crimes”, which essentially was what happened to me.
[Image] The inside of a Mannheim Prison cell, as drawn by Ernst Zundel while serving many years there.
Hajo was a German soldier during WW II on the Eastern Front, and he spent 11 years in a communist prison before he was released after the war. So, he became a lawyer, so he could prevent that from happening again. It took him 2-1/2 months, almost 3 months after that, but he finally got me a bail hearing. And I was, subsequently, handcuffed, taken out in a prison bus. The bus was very interesting because it had little rooms half the size of a telephone booth and I was squeezed into it and then the door was closed — individual rooms.
[Image] Leuchter’s lawyer, Hajo Hermann, pictured here in Jan 1944. He was a high ranking and influential member of the Luftwaffe, and a recipient of the Knight’s Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords (German: Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern).
After I arrived there, I went before a 3-judge panel that was going to decide on whether or not I would get bail. Hajo Hermann made all his arguments, and I hadn’t said anything. I was then given the opportunity to speak. I spoke briefly and the judges said:
“Well, we don’t have to go any further. We are going to remand you without bail.”
This was all going on in German, … So, and my German is not good, but I obviously figured out, at this point, that I’m going back to the slammer. So, I turned around to Hajo Hermann:
“What the hell kind of kangaroo court is this.”
“They haven’t given me an opportunity to speak.”
“I’m a responsible individual.”
Well, the judge, at that point, stopped the proceedings. He said to Hajo Hermann, in German:
“What’s your client’s problem?”
And then he said:
He turned around and said to me in perfect English. They all understood perfect English, and he said to me:
“Do you have a problem with what we’re doing here?”
And I looked at him, and I said:
“You damn well know I’ve got a problem with what you’re doing here.”
“I’m a responsible business person.”
“I came over to your country for a television show.”
“I was seized at gunpoint, illegally transported across a half dozen states against your own laws, and now I’m waiting bail, so I could go home.”
And the judge says:
“Well, if we gave you bail, would you come back?”
And I said:
“Of course, I’d come back.”
So, they said:
“Give us a few minutes to deliberate.”
They went in back. They came out 10 minutes later and they said they were giving me bail. Now they had to do something with me while they’re waiting for the bail, because Hajo Hermann contacted his contacts with Zundel, and Zundel had to post bail. I was effectively bailed for something in the vicinity of $22,000. Oh yeah, I was a master criminal!
JR: Wow, what a criminal!
FL: At that point, the judges called us into chambers. Now we’re in chambers. They ordered coffee and cakes. In our meeting, I’m eating cakes and drinking coffee with the judges. [Jim laughing] You can see where their sympathies lay, okay.
[Image] Coffee and cake with the judges.
Afterward, I went back to the prison. I got my belongings. I got my passport, everything. And I told Hajo Hermann. I said:
“I want the next plane out of here.”
“I would like you to stay a couple more days because there are some people who would like to hear you speak.”
“I’m not staying. I want to be on the next plane.”
So I did get on the next plane. I came home and that was fine, after I got home. Then I was in touch with Hajo Hermann and I had plans to go back and face trial, something along a year, which I believe was going to be the following February. As the time went by, he had been in touch with me. About a week before, he called and I said:
“Yes, I’ll make arrangements, I’ll get a ticket, and I’ll see you on such and such a date.”
Well, while I was in prison, and prisoners, as most people know stick together. I had a prisoner who used to feed me. He was called a schantzer and he brought the food to all the cells. He used to talk to me sometimes because I was effectively held in solitary confinement the whole time I was there because I was what, in this country, they called “Protective Custody” (PC) because they were afraid somebody might try to kill me.
I got a call from an attorney, who told me that this call never took place. He said:
“I was asked to call you by (and he told me the person, whose name I won’t mention) who was the schantzer and he said he wanted me to tell you, ‘Don’t come back!’”
“The day after you left, your bail was revoked. There is an arrest on sight warrant out on you. The judges were fired and the Jewish mafia has a contract out on you. You won’t last several days in the prison.”
“I told you what I was asked to tell you. This conversation never took place.”
I told my attorney. I said:
“I’m not coming back.”
“Fred, you’ve gotta come back.”
“That couldn’t possibly happen. They can’t revoke your bail without telling me.”
“They couldn’t fire the judges. I would have to be served with the arrest warrant.”
“Well, I’m not coming back.”
I got a call back later the following day after he had been to court. He said:
“Fred, I don’t know what to say. He says everything happened exactly the way you said. The judges were fired. There was an arrest warrant out on you, arrest on sight. The court apologized for not sending any paperwork. It must have slipped through the cracks.”
See, they wanted to get their hands on me, wanted me to come back.
JR: What would have happened if you went back and you obviously would have been convicted.
FL: I would have done 7-10 years in prison.
JR: Oh my goodness! And it would have been for defaming the dead.
FL: Several of the interesting things that happened to me, most of the guards liked me and talked to me. They didn’t treat me like a criminal. I may have been incarcerated in their prison wing. They didn’t treat me like another criminal. Obviously I wasn’t. Most of them were Germans and they probably didn’t like what was going on anyway.
When I first got in there, they issued me prison clothes: Dungarees and a denim shirt, and I was supposed to put it on. And I told the guard that I absolutely refused to wear their clothes. I had my clothes. I had two pairs of pants. I had 2 shirts and I had 2 changes of socks and that’s what I was going to be using. So the deputy warden came down and he told me:
“You have to wear prison clothes.”
And I told him:
“I am not going to wear your lousy clothes.”
“Let me explain something to you. These clothes,” and I took my shirt, and I said, “these are my only connection with the outside. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t belong in here. I’m not taking these clothes off and putting your prison clothes on. You may get them off me, but I’m going to tell you right now, that you and the rest of your people are going to know you have been in one helluva fight.”
So, he looked at me like he didn’t quite know how to deal with that. He turned around to the guard, and he says:
“Does he keep himself clean?”
And the guard says:
“He washes his underwear and his socks every day and he changes his clothes every day.”
“Let him wear what he’s wearing.”
I won round one anyway.
Then at another point, I had people pounding on my door at 3:00 in the morning. The security in the prisons was terrible. People from the convicted wing used to come through. They all had keys. I don’t know how they could do this. They’d be pounding on my door 3:00 in the morning, telling me that they’re going to kill me. I said obviously, they were Jews.
So, I had an extra broom pole that I had because they changed cells on me when I first got there, and I whittled down the end of the broom pole and I made myself a spear. And every time they opened the door, I was waiting with the spear and the guards would look at it.
[Image] A reenactment of Fred working on his “broom spear”. In actual fact, Fred sharpened the spear by using the somewhat sharp edges of the flat bed springs, finishing the tip off by sanding it to sharp point on the concrete floor.
They knew what was going on. Nobody was worried I was going to stab anybody. They knew I was going to stab someone if they came in after me. So, I went on that way for over a month. Every time they opened the door, I stood there with a spear waiting to lunge.
At any rate, there was a shakedown in the prison, just like they do in the United States. Periodically, they came through and they tossed everybody’s cell, looking for drugs, weapons, whatever. The lieutenant came down and that was the first time I ever met the lieutenant. He introduced himself. They threw everybody’s clothes, furniture, everything out onto the tier. He just put his hands under my clothes, didn’t disturb anything, apologized for the inconvenience and thanked me. Again, he didn’t consider me a criminal. Just on the way out, he looked down and saw under the sink, my spear, and he turned around to the guard and he said:
“What’s that?” in German.
The guard looked at it and got a little red faced, but he didn’t know quite what to say and in German, he said:
“It’s Leuchter’s weapon.”
[laughing] The guard looked at him and he looked at me, he says:
“I don’t want to know”, in German, and he turned and walked out.
Obviously, they weren’t afraid that I was going to use it on them. They understood what was going on. So, they understood why I had a weapon.
I spent most of my time in solitary except on Sunday night late around 10:00, an hour before they locked us up. They let me go down and sit in a room with the fellow that fed us, schantzer and he used to make coffee and I’d sit and have a cup of coffee and talk with him.
The total 3-1/2 months I was there, I got exactly 2 showers — that’s because they were afraid to let me out of the cell. When they did send me down to get the shower, they sent me down with a couple of Right-wing skinheads, who happened to like me. So nobody was going to hurt me when I went down.
The security in the place was crazy. In one respect, they sent me down to the shower with these Right-wing skinheads, but yet when I went to see my lawyer or went to the doctor, they just turned me loose. We’d be walking across the prison yard with everybody in there. So it was a crazy place, one of those places, that old joke, … Who’s running the mental institution? The inmates! Crazy people were running their stupid prison.
JR: Did you stop in England before you came to the United States? Did something happen in England?
FL: Yes. When I went over there, the time I went over there to be qualified by the court, and I viewed Dachau and Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle.
[Image] Hartheim Castle, Germany.
I stopped in England and I was supposed to speak at a history club of which David Irving was a member. He was the one who set it up. And unbeknownst to me, I had received a letter from somebody saying that I was persona non grata in England and if I went there, I would be deported But I gave it to my attorney and my attorney spoke with the consul and also the ambassador, and they said there was no such information on it. Well, apparently there was and it was the case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing.
We drove and took the ferry. And when we got to England, fortunately we got there a day early, and I was able to get down. The only thing we were able to do that was enjoyable was I saw Stonehenge.
[Image] Fred’s handiwork with hammer and chisel at Stonehenge.
Then when I got back the following night, my wife was in the audience and I got up to speak at the meeting of the historical group. We were in a hall in Chelsea. David Irving came up just as I started speaking, saying there was some gentlemen waiting to talk to you off to the side. And I looked off the side, and there’s a bunch of cops out there. What’s this? So I said:
“Well, what’s going to happen?”
“Well, maybe you better talk to them.”
So David Irving stood up and he said that the police are asking to see Fred Leuchter. So I went out to the hall and I had the Chief Inspector or the Commissioner, like a captain in this country, who was in charge of the Chelsea Station. He told me, he said that they got a complaint. He said:
“We’re a little unclear with the paperwork. We don’t know where it came from, but he said I have a call from the Home Office, which they give us direction and I was told to detain you. So he says, I’m going to have to take you to the station.”
So I said:
“What about my wife out there.”
“Don’t worry about her; I’ll get her.”
He drove her to the station personally. They were being very amicable.
I got out and there must have been 8 or 10 bobbies [British term for police] inside this prison van that they got me in and I’m sitting in the van. They didn’t handcuff me. They didn’t do anything. As soon as they closed the doors and we drove off and the chief inspector was out of the way, all the cops jumped up and shook hands with me because I made execution equipment! They were all fans! [laughter]
[Image] Fred having a laugh while recounting his experience with the English “bobbies”.
I got to the station and I was allowed to stay in the lobby with my wife, out in front of the police station until the guard changed at 1:00 in the morning. At 1:00 in the morning, a new captain came on, and he decided that I shouldn’t be out there because he said:
“Criminals, people who are supposed to be detained are supposed to be in cells.”
He didn’t know who I was, didn’t care. So they threw me in a cell with a psychopath, who was in there for assault with a deadly weapon. He had already hurt a number of people. So, I’m in there with him and he asked me what I was in there for, so I told them. Well, he said:
“What the hell are these people doing.”
“We have freedom of speech in England, what are they thinking of doing to you?”
So I’m not going to get hurt with him. Obviously, he likes me.
They pulled me out again, put me in another cell. Fhis time with somebody that wasn’t as dangerous. This poor kid that they put me in with, he was a snatch and grab crook. He was crying to me. He said:
“It shouldn’t have happened.”
He used to go into department stores. He’d grab a television and run. It was Christmastime, just before Christmas and they had this beautiful gold Buddha that they had on display. He thought it was just a display. He thought it was nice. He decided to get it for his girlfriend. He grabbed it and they caught him at the door.
An he says:
“I never took anything in my life that was expensive.”
It was worth 120,000 pounds, and they had special guards guarding them; although, you couldn’t see them. He just grabbed it and ran. He said [laughing]:
“They should never put out something that is that expensive in front of me.”
I was then pulled out of my cell at 2:00 in the morning by a couple of idiot immigration officers, and they took me in a little room. Turned a tape recorder on, proceeded to give me the third degree.
“What, are you people crazy?”
“I came over here to speak. What do you think, I’m some kind of a subversive? You’re being ridiculous.”
They questioned me until 4:00 in the morning, with the typical good cop, bad cop technique, that didn’t get them anything. So finally they left and I was put back in my cell.
[Image] Fred Leuchter holding up while getting the third degree with the old, good cop, bad cop routine.
Well, I’m in the cell. They fed everybody in the cell that was going out to court, but I’m not going out to court. I don’t even get a cup of coffee. The snatch-and-grab kid, he starts pounding on the bars, screaming his head off and the guard cops come over and they say:
“What do you want.”
He points at me and he says:
“Give my mate coffee!”
So I got coffee and a banger for breakfast. But they were going to leave me there because they didn’t know what to do with me. I didn’t exist on paper.
[Image] A British banger.
Well, at 7:00 in the morning, another agent shows up from Her Majesty’s Immigration Service and he takes me in the room and starts to talk to me. He said;
“You know why I’m here?”
“No, why are you here? I have just been questioned for the last 4 hours.”
“Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, I saw the tapes. That’s why I’m here. You made a formal request to be sent home.”
“You’re damn right I did.”
“Well, I’m going to send you home at her majesty’s expense. They never should have done what they did to you. They are violating our laws. Get something straight. I don’t know who you are. I don’t like you. I don’t dislike you.”
“I couldn’t care less! But I’ll be damned if I’m going to let these people violate our laws for whatever reason. That shouldn’t have happened. You know what was planned for you?”
“No, what was planned for me?”
“Under international law, you requested to go home and we should have sent you home, but they were going under a different section of the law that if you hadn’t asked, they were going to deport you back to where you came from.
Well, you came from France. You would have been given to France. We have 3 days to a week for France to refuse you. France would have refused you, because you don’t belong in France. Prior to that, you went into Belgium to get to France. He said you would have been given to Belgium. Belgium would have refused you. Then you would have been offered to Germany. Germany would have refused you.
By the time this was done, he said, you would have been in a cell for about 25 days. But you’re going home today.”
JR: So basically, would you say that that was the Jews harassing you? Just trying to get back at you.
FL: Yes, yes! Very definitely. Of course, it didn’t do them any good.
They finally put me on an airplane and they sent my wife and I home at her majesty’s expense. We didn’t even get to use our tickets.
JR: Now if you went to Germany today, would you be arrested?
JR: So, you really can’t go out of the country, right?
FL: No, I can’t even go to Canada.
JR: You probably can’t go to any of the 18 countries where “Holocaust” denial is banned?
[Image] Eighteen, mostly European countries that ban telling the truth about the so-called “Holocaust”.
FL: I can’t go to any of the countries that are affiliated with the European Common Market. What a lot of people don’t realize is that the Common Market is more than just an economic alliance. There is a criminal alliance that goes with it.
The fellow who sent the message to me not to come back, his brother lived in Portugal. He was a German. He went to Portugal to visit his brother. Seven people were murdered within his brother’s apartment. He was arrested in Portugal in an investigation and charged with murder. After they investigated, they determined that he had nothing to do with the murder, so they let him go and he went back to Germany.
When he got back to Germany, the German officials arrested him and threw him into jail and they’re trying him for murder and he said:
“But I was exonerated by the Portuguese police.”
It doesn’t make any difference. The Portuguese police aren’t going to come to Germany to testify for him because somebody has to pay them to that. He didn’t have any money to pay them to do that, but he is being prosecuted in Germany because Portugal is part of the Common Market.
JR: Wow! That is something. Are you on a no-fly list? You haven’t been flying?
FL: I don’t know.
JR: So you haven’t been flying.
Okay, Fred I do have some questions I would like to ask you about your Leuchter Report. Is this two reports or one report?
[Image] Map of the Auschwitz Camp Complex showing the 3 main camps.
[Image] Auschwitz I (Main Camp) Layout.
FL: This is one report. This is the original report. It was done for the court in Toronto. It’s entitled, “An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek Poland,” dated April 5, 1988.
[Image] Fred reading his report.
JR: Now the questions I have are about Krema I in Auschwitz. You went into that building in there, right?
JR: Maybe you can explain to me how they would have said it worked. They claim they have these Zyklon pellets. They throw them into the hole. It goes on the ground. How does it work they way they described it?
[Image] Krema I in the main Auschwitz I camp showing the flat roof. This is the where the alleged gassings took place and is the one tourists get a tour of.
FL: The trouble is, they don’t know how Zyklon B works and the people that came up with the procedure to supposedly work, couldn’t possibly work. Let’s talk about Zyklon B for a moment, so we know what it is.
Prior to WWII, in the 1930s and in the 1920s, they used to fumigate with hydrogen cyanide gas. The Germans improved things and they have been well known for their scientific advances, etc. They wanted to come up with a better way to handle hydrogen cyanide gas, so you wouldn’t kill yourself. Normally what happened was you generated the gas on site. The gas fumigated where you were, then you vented it or opened it up. They did it with houses. They did it with factories, etc. They would simply throw sodium cyanide into a dilute sulphuric acid and water mixture. They covered the building with a tent. They let the gas degenerate, then a day later they took the tent down. They wore masks so they didn’t hurt themselves. Then they’d air the place out.
[Images] Cans of the insecticide Zyklon B
Well, what the Germans did was they took the gas after they made it. They made it at the factory instead of making it on site and they allowed the gas to be absorbed in chalk pellets — it was either mine chalk, or sometimes they used crushed up sea shells.
JR: Could it have been gypsum?
FL: Yes, they used gypsum. It got absorbed in that. In order to get it out of the pellets, you had to blow hot air through the pellets. They designed it for use in the chambers that they used for fumigating, for which they had a furnace, which ran by oil or coal or some other method. They put the Zyklon B pellets in like a big strainer. It held the pellets. They forced hot air with a blower up through the pellets. The absorbed gas that was in the pellets now becomes gas again. It’s a procedure that chemists call, ‘sublimation’.
JR: Can you see the gas, or is it invisible?
FL: No, you can see it.
JR: So, in other words, it becomes like a mist, a white mist?
[Image] A room being fumigated with some kind of white gas.
FL: It becomes like a cloud. If you don’t blow it, which is what they do in the fumigation chambers, they had the stove at one end. They sublimated the gas in the stove and they had blowers that blew it through all the clothes that were hanging and there was a door at one end, a door at the other end. The same thing they did in the U.S. Space program when the people came back from the moon. They went in one door. They were decontaminated and they came out the other door. That’s what they did. They put the clothes in one end. They fumigated them and they took the clothes out the other end. It was an easy way to handle hydrogen cyanide. They have a tall stack on the thing and they fumigated it; they exhausted the gas, blew fresh air in for several hours.
JR: With the Zyklon B pellets that they had, they said they put them on the ground. I don’t know how that would work on the ground. If you put these pellets on the ground, how would it give off gas. You have to blow the hot air over it.
FL: That’s correct! And presumably what happened at Krema I — that’s at Auschwitz [I] — they had this long room, which was actually a morgue.
[Image] Krema I, the so-called “gas chamber” at Auschwitz I (main camp).
It was a Leichenkeller [morgue]. They had these holes in the roof. They were like vents, and they took the covers off of them and the SS officers — now remember, you can’t touch Zyklon B — they were taking handfuls of it and throwing it down through these holes, went down on the floor, then presumably the gas went up and killed them.
[Image] The four holes in the roof of the Leichenkeller [morgue].
[Image] A scene from a jewish horror movie where naked and incredibly naive jews wait jam-packed together for the showers to be turned on. Some have puzzled expressions as they try to figure out what the guard meant, when in response to their questions about there being no soap, he replied cryptically, “Don’t worry. You are the soap!”
[Image] Another scene from a jewish horror movie showing an “evil Nazi” in a sinister looking gas mask about to drop Zyklon B onto innocent jews. Note the round well-made porthole style construction versus the Krema I’s post war roughly-made square holes.
Well, in the first place, this was out in the middle of the Polish countryside. When these [alleged] executions all took place, it was in the winter time, so it was cold. The gas chamber itself, or the room that they call the gas chamber, which was actually the morgue, … It was probably below zero. So, you’re not going to sublimate any gas.
Plus the fact, let’s assume you could sublimate the gas, … These people who were presumably put into the chamber were put in unrestrained.
FL: Which means that they could cause a spark. They had hobnails in their boots. [see JR’s comment below] There were any one of a number of ways they could make a spark. The gas is extremely explosive! So if they made a spark, … and I’ll tell you something, that if I was going to be gassed with 500 other people, I’d make a spark to blow the room up. I’m sure they would have done the same thing.
JR: They are going to say, though, the people had no clothes on, right? So they’re not going to have any metal on them without clothes. But they do have lights in there. Lights and a spark.
FL: They weren’t explosion proof. They didn’t have explosion-proof lights. None of the doors were pressurized doors. It was just a joke.
[Image] A wooden door with a glass pane in Krema I (Auschwitz I).
Now there was a little difference in the [alleged] procedure that was used in Krema II and III at Birkenau (Auschwitz II).
[Image] Layout of Auschwits II (Birkenau) showing location of Kremas II, III, IV and V.
They allegedly had a metal cage that came down inside, and they filled the cage with Zyklon B. Another brilliant idea! [sarcasm alert] Because if you pack the cage with Zyklon B, with everything compressed together, you’d never get anything out. So, I mean, the whole thing is a joke! These facilities could not have been used for gas execution.
JR: That was Krema I [actually II and III]. Then you had the other Krema IV and V. Of course, they blew those up.
[Image] Ruins of Krema II with women’s kitchen in the background.
[Image] Remains of Krema III
FL: Krema II and Krema III were full-fledged buildings with crematoria. They had basements. They even had a conveyor belt for moving bodies around. They weren’t execution facilities.
[Image] Krema IV, in the summer of 1943 after it became operational.
Krema III and Krema IV [FL says he misspoke here and actually meant Krema IV and Krema V] were brick buildings that were on one level. They had normal windows in them. They certainly couldn’t have been used for gas chambers either. Those buildings, the only thing left is the floors, which was a poured concrete slab and few bricks on the corners because the local Poles robbed all the bricks after the war.
Now, if we come back to Krema II and Krema III, they were allegedly destroyed by the SS before the evacuated the camp. They may well have been destroyed by the SS before they evacuated the camp because, quite frankly, if I was evacuating some place and the enemy was coming, I didn’t want the Russians to get what I had. I’m going to blow the buildings up anyway. Those facilities were made. They were full crematoria with morgues. You must remember that all hospitals, all public buildings where people lived, all had crematoria in Europe. Long before they ran out of cemetery room. So it was standard procedure to cremate. That’s why they had them. They pointed to these things. I said:
“These people have these things because they didn’t have any cemeteries.”
JR: Now, you didn’t go to Treblinka, right? Any of those, did you? So you only went to the camps that you mentioned.
FL: There’s nothing there.
JR: That’s true. Have you seen the last video by David Irving? He actually was talking about Treblinka, and he was thinking that millions of people were killed there. I just don’t understand how he came to that conclusion!
FL: He’s done the same thing that Mark Weber has done. They are talking about limited gassings. Absolutely impossible! With the technology that the SS had, they did not, were not capable. They couldn’t do a competent gas execution. They couldn’t execute one person, let alone thousands. With all the stuff that they’ve done at these camps, they brought in ground-penetrating radar. They’ve done all kinds of things. They cannot even find any bone. They haven’t found ANYTHING!!!!
[Image] Ground penetrating radar being used at Treblinka. Being conducted to a depth of eighteen feet by an expert in November 1999 and showing no ground disturbance.
JR: Well, the biggest problem is not really the people that you can kill, but it is to get rid of the bodies. What do you do with the bodies? Now they say at Auschwitz, a million people went through it, were killed there. Fine, if you believe that, where are all the bodies?
FL: As I pointed out several times when I spoke, they would have been cremating bodies up into the 1990s.
JR: If you are dealing with 6 million, right? It makes no sense. In my investigation, what I’ve come to learn, especially the camps like Treblinka now. There’s nothing there. There is absolutely no bodies.
[Image] Treblinka, with a stone monument in the background.
[Image] Treblinka Memorial. Includes 17,000 stones set in concrete in a circle to form an ugly looking symbolic cemetery.
FL: Those were transit camps, shipped in by rail. They brought people into it that were sent to the other camps.
[Image] Treblinka railway branch line.
What they can’t seem to get through their heads is that the Germans needed laborers in the factories. You don’t kill your laborers.
[Image] Prison labor working on metal parts.
If it wasn’t for Auschwitz and Birkenau, the German Army and Air Corp would have stopped functioning because that was the I.G. Farben Buna Rubber facility.
[Image] I. G. Farben factory at Auschwitz III (Monowitz).
[Image] Prison labor at work at one of the many Auschwitz factories.
They were making artificial rubber. They couldn’t get any real rubber because we cut them off. So without that, you wouldn’t have any airplanes, you wouldn’t have any gaskets. You wouldn’t have any tires. You wouldn’t have had any bushings for the tanks, nothing would have rolled. So you have to keep all these people working.
[Image] Prison labor at work at one of the many Auschwitz factories.
Nobody said that the Nazis were nice people. They put all these people in prison camps to make them work.
[Image] Prison labor at work at a construction site.
But also in the camps, they treated them decently. They kept them well. They were given medical care. Auschwitz had a symphony orchestra. Auschwitz had a swimming pool. All these things.
[Image] Auschwitz orchestra.
[Image] Auschwitz I swimming pool (see map above).
JR: All the amenities.
FL: Did they execute anybody? Yes. They executed the people that the Jews tried themselves. If I was a Jew and I was in the camp and I killed another Jew, they tried me and like Pontius Pilate, they conducted the execution.
JR: We aren’t denying that Jews were killed. But any Jew that was killed, I would think would have been subversive,. An enemy of the state or they did something criminal or whatever, but of course, you’re not dealing in the millions, that’s for sure.
FL: They also used some of these prisoners in the concentration camps for medical experiments. They used them for high altitude tests. They pumped air out of the chambers. We got a wealth of medical information after the war. Nobody raised the question that maybe we should be all nice people and maybe we should say:
“We shouldn’t use this information that wasn’t gotten properly.”
They murdered people to get this information. So, maybe this medical information should be thrown away — NO! You get the information, you use it and we took it after the war. Everything they did, they had a purpose to.
JR: Why do you think the Jews were so adamant against guys like you. that you’re trying to just tell the truth? I know the answer because I’ve studied it. What do you think the game is there?
FL: Because we’re rocking their boat and since WWII, Israel has been making a fortune on it. It’s an industry. They’re making thousands [billions] of dollars. Germany gives [hundreds of] millions of dollars every year to Israel.
You know, the average Jew believes it.
FL: I think I may have told you one time in the past, when I was on trial for practicing as an engineer without a license, I got a call from a Jewish gentleman, within the Los Angeles area. And he called me up to tell me, he said:
“I wanted to express my opinion on this. I don’t think what they’re doing to you is right. The Jews in your area and the Jewish organizations are persecuting you. The same way that we were persecuted by the Nazis, and that’s wrong. You are still a despicable person.”
And I asked:
“Why am I despicable?”
“Because you made the gas chambers that they used at Auschwitz and Birkenau.”
“Wait a minute, let’s back up a minute. What are you talking about? You know how old I am? I was born in 1943.”
“Oh, my God. I’m 10 years older than you are.”
He was in the concentration camps. He said:
“I have a white paper that was sent out by the B’nai B’rith saying that I built the gas chambers.”
JR: So that’s why they’re after you.
FL: I said, would you please send me a copy of it. He said:
“Oh no, I couldn’t do that. I might get in trouble.”
He hung up the phone.
JR: So what they did is they just got a lot of propaganda against you to make it look like you’re a demon, that you were killing all these people, that you made the equipment to kill them.
FL: Lord knows what they said about me.
JR: I didn’t really catch that one. I can see why they’d get mad, if someone told them that.
FL: Everything that I said in my report has been confirmed by Yad Vashem in Jerusalem. They have a copy of a report, and they’ve said:
“Everything that Fred Leuchter said in his report at the Zundel trial is essentially correct; however, it doesn’t really matter because the Nazis were despicable people.”
[Image] Anti-German propaganda illustration.
[Image] Aerial view of Yad Vashem.
Let’s punish them for what they did. Let’s not punish them for what they didn’t do, which was what they were/are doing. Germany has been abused for the last 70 years, since the war. They’ve been abused. The people in Germany, most of them believe that they murdered all these Jews. The world should be ashamed of itself for what it did.
JR: I think more Germans died [20 million] than Jews, in regards to people dying. They said that at the end of the war, a lot of the German soldiers were killed because they didn’t feed them and all the bombings that happened. Within the cities of Germany, they were bombing at the end of the war and killing innocent people.
[Image] Dresden after being fire-bombed.
[Image] Dead Germans being stacked up on steel girders, ready to be burnt.
FL: The real holocaust was Dresden and there were two holocausts in Japan. Not that I have a problem with the dropping of the bombs in Japan. I believe that they shortened the war. I don’t think it was a good idea to drop the bombs.
[Image] Curtis Emerson LeMay (1906 – 1990) was a General in the United States Air Force. During the war, he was known for planning and executing a massive bombing campaign against cities in Japan.
Because a man who was in charge of the Air Force, Curtis LeMay. He said:
“I can do the same thing in less than a month with fire bombs.”
He told Truman. He said:
“Let’s not open the atomic can” and Truman ignored him.
Because it was already determined by FDR what was going to be done. All he was doing was carrying out the work of the Jewish Brain Trust that FDR had. No, I don’t think we should have dropped the bombs because we forever have a black eye for doing that when we didn’t need to.
We could have done it by conventional weapons. And yes, the Japanese needed a lesson because they would have fought us with anything they could have, when they landed. The same thing would have happened if someone invaded this country. Admiral Yamamoto said that before the war started, before Pearl Harbor, because he advised against Pearl Harbor, he said:
“There’s a rifle behind every blade of grass in the United States. If we defeat the military, then we have to deal with the people and we ain’t gonna win.”
The same thing would have happened in Japan. We would have been fighting the populace with stones and rocks, everything.
JR: They wouldn’t have gone down easily.
FL: No! I think LeMay could have done the same thing with some fire bombs without irradiating the planet.
JR: So in regards to your report, you said there is only three of them, original Leuchter Reports. You would think they’d put that in the Washington archives, Library of Congress .…
[Image] Jim Rizoli holding up one of the three original Leuchter Reports.
FL: Probably not in my lifetime.
JR: Well, it is something that really has turned the tide in regards to revisionism, with what’s going on there.
FL: Zundel’s copy was lost when they fire bombed his house.
[Image] Ernst Zundel’s Toronto house after being firebombed in the early morning on Sunday, May 7, 1995. An offshoot of the New York based Jewish Defense League (JDL) claimed responsibility.
The one in the court, Lord knows what happened to it. The one in the court was copied by, strangely enough, the Aryan Nations. They printed a copy with their name on it. I have had a lot of people call me and ask me about that. I said:
“I had nothing to do with it. It’s a public record.”
It’s a court transcript.
JR: I think I might have seen it on the Internet, too.
FL: Zundel has copies of it, well his wife, Ingrid has copies.
JR: Germar Rudolf kind of gave some information on it. How do you feel about what he wrote about it? Did you read his book about it?
[Image] Germar Rudolf, author of the The Rudolf Report.
FL: I did read the whole thing but unfortunately, what we’ve got here is we’ve got a bit of a tempest in a teapot. People have said that Germar Rudolf was critical of the report. He really wasn’t critical and the problem is that I’m an engineer. I build things. I approached it totally differently than he does. He is an “egghead”. He’s a scientist. He’s a Ph. D. and a chemist. He approaches everything from a theoretical standpoint. I approach everything from a physical standpoint. Some of his stuff has been misunderstood.
[Image] Germar Rudolf, Wolfgang Lambrecht: The Rudolf Report—Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the “Gas Chambers” of Auschwitz — 2nd, revised edition
In 1988, Fred Leuchter, American expert for execution technologies, investigated the alleged gas chambers of Auschwitz and Majdanek and concluded that they could not have functioned as claimed. Ever since, Leuchter’s claims have been attacked. In 1993, Rudolf, a researcher from the prestigious Max Planck Institute, published a thorough forensic study about the “gas chambers” of Auschwitz. His report irons out the deficiencies and discrepancies of “The Leuchter Report.” The Rudolf Report was the first English edition of this sensational scientific work. This new edition analyzes all existing evidence on the Auschwitz gas chambers and offers even more evidence. The conclusions are startling. Appendix describes Rudolf’s unique persecution—this brilliant scientist was so feared by the mainstream holocaust establishment that they banned him from writing about or researching the subject as terms of his release from prison!
NOTE: The book can be downloaded as a PDF here: http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/02-trr.pdf
I don’t know if you saw recently in the dispute with Fritz Berg. Fritz Berg was critical of me because he said that Germar Rudolf said I was wrong, it isn’t explosive. Germar Rudolf responded by saying:
“I didn’t say it wasn’t explosive. What I said was both you are right and Fred is right.”
[Image] Fritz Berg. His website is: http://www.nazigassings.com/
Germar realizes that we have two different approaches and he approached it differently than I did, and that’s the only difference. Everything I said was substantially correct. I’m not a chemist. I was briefed by a chemist, who was the chief chemist for Dupont in their facility for making hydrogen cyanide gas. He was the one that told me how to deal with it, how it works and how the blue residue that’s left is ferric cyanide.
[Image] Germar Rudolf in the interior northwest room in the Zyklon B disinfestation wing of BW 5a in the Birkenau camp.
[Image] Germar Rudolf next to the exterior southwest wall of the Zyklon B disinfestation wing of BW 5b in the Birkenau camp. Blue staining remains despite 50 years of weathering.
Now my explanation of it probably wasn’t as intense as Germar Rudolf would have done. He was very much stronger; but essentially, he said the same thing.
JR: I didn’t really see that Germar was against it, but I do see that because he’s a chemist, so it’s a whole different frame of thought and how that is.
Concluding here, Fred, is there anything you would have done differently when you think about what happened. You look at your life and what happened. What do you think you could have done differently that would have made it easier on yourself, … Probably not do it, right? [half jokingly] Not to go over to Poland and get in there and do your investigation?
FL: The long and the short of it is that I guess I couldn’t have done anything any different.
FL: I became involved in executions to stop torturing and punishment. I was the only one who could have dealt with the problem that Zundel had.
I thought about this a number of times. First, as an American, I believe in freedom of speech, freedom of thought. Second, I believe that anyone, whoever he is, has a right to a proper legal defense, no matter what his charges are. Those two things lead me to say, that I would have done the same thing over again, even if I knew what was going to happen. Because Zundel had a right to defend himself!
And he also has a right to believe what he wants and nobody has any right to interfere with that.
[Image] Ernst Zundel, a persecuted revisionist.
Canada doesn’t have a bill of rights like we do. They had something that was kind of watered down, but even so, it was enough for the Supreme Court to strike down what they did to Ernst.
JR: Of course, his life hasn’t turned out too well. He’s in Germany now. I don’t even know if he’s going to be coming back to this country, right?
FL: He probably won’t. He’s probably going to die in the Black Forest where he is. He lives where he used to live when he was a youngster. I think he should be brought back to the United States, and I think he should be given citizenship. He shouldn’t be separated from Ingrid.
JR: I know, I know. Do you get the chance to talk to her yourself?
FL: Once in a great while I talk to her on the Internet. I talked to her on the phone a couple of times. I don’t really know Ingrid and she really doesn’t know me. It’s unfortunate, because had Zundel stayed in this country, I’m sure she would have. But I keep a low profile where Ernst is concerned. Because part of the terms of Ernst’s release from prison is based on the fact that he doesn’t associate with any of the former “criminals” that he associated with — and I’m one of those criminals!
JR: You haven’t been formally arrested, have you?
FL: There was a warrant out for me. I was in prison.
JR: I know that but technically, you haven’t been arrested.
FL: What they did by doing that, they sullied “my skirt” so that if I were to testify in a German court, I don’t come off clean. That’s what they wanted to do and that’s what they succeeded doing. It was a political move. The fact that even if I was convicted of a crime, it wouldn’t change my ability to make a determination of what the gas chambers were.
If I was a Nazi and I was defaming the dead, it wouldn’t change anything! That didn’t happen, but nevertheless, that’s where it’s at. I stay away from Ernst because I don’t want to cause Ernst any problems. And if I send him letters, I’m sure it would cause him problems, because I’m sure they watch his mail.
JR: So basically now, now and then you go to a revisionist meeting or some meeting every now and then?
JR: You kind of stay low key.
FL: I’ve been more active since I’ve been on Facebook than I have in the last 15 years before that. And it’s funny. I’m not careful what I say on Facebook, but what I say is the same thing I’ve said for the last 25 years.
I speak as the Pope does — ex cathedra — I’m an expert. There are no other experts. There has been nobody else certified by any court on this planet. The only one that exists is ME. It sounds pompous, then it’s pompous, but the point is when I speak as an expert and I speak of the things that I requested to investigate by the court, nobody can question what I said.
I say a lot of things on Facebook that somebody else probably would get shut down for. I don’t get shut down because I don’t think they know how to do it. They could arbitrarily do that but I think it’d cause an uproar and people would be upset. I’m not a neo-Nazi. I haven’t said anything that’s right wing.
JR: You just tell what the truth is about the topic you’re talking about.
FL: Right. The only thing that I’m careful about is I have people that ask me to “like” web pages, and I told them before, I, like Caesar’s wife, must be above reproach and I’m going to maintain that position. As an expert, I’ll state an opinion. My personal opinions, I keep to myself.
Well, Fred, we’ve covered quite a bit here in regards to your involvement with the revisionist movement anyway and your expertise on the gas chamber situation. The only other thing we didn’t cover was, I wanted to just touch briefly on your family and your family coming here related to the Revolutionary War. We haven’t really touched on that. I just wanted to get a little background about you and your family with Bunker Hill. Remember, we talked about that.
FL: Before we do that, there is something else I’d like to comment on.
We talked briefly how the Jews and Jewish organizations destroyed my business as a manufacturer of execution equipment. Some of the states threatened to pass laws to prohibit the Department of Corrections in these states from dealing with me. These people that are doing this, have no consideration at all and what they’re doing is actually criminal because they are fostering torture.
All these people that are waiting to be executed have a right to be executed humanely and by pushing me out of the picture, they’re making it so that these people are being executed, are being tortured to death. Probably the last 20 executions, almost all of them, resulted in torture and problem execution. There’s nobody there to help the states any longer.
JR: You mean, right now that’s it, nobody at all.
FL: That’s right. The states are operating blindly. They are having problems with the chemicals because the Europeans, and they are the only ones that make sodium Pentothal, they’re not supplying it to the states. We use sodium Pentothal for operations and they’ve refused to supply sodium Pentothal to the United States for needed operations, if the Department of Corrections continued to use it for lethal injections.
So, as a result, the states have tried to find other means of doing it and they’ve had all kinds of problems.
These people that have come after me, they’re no more than criminals, and there is certainly no humanity in their souls at all, because they don’t care if people are tortured. The only thing they care about is silencing me. They failed to do that.
There’s one other thing that I would like to comment on, which is in the same vein. I built an electric chair for the state of Tennessee. The state of Tennessee has used it once.
[Image] An electric chair built be Fred Leuchter.
The Jewish element in Tennessee pressured the Department of Corrections to have the chair modified. They brought in a gentleman by the name of Jay Weichert, who should be ashamed of himself.
[Image] The electric chair and its control panel are shown in Riverbend Maximum Security Institution in Nashville, Tenn. 2014.
He is an electrical engineer that comes from the state of Arkansas. He is responsible for the electric chair in Florida, the one that tortures everybody. He deliberately, and I say deliberately, because he must know as much about the execution procedure as I do. He must have read all the material that happened in New York or he should have. If he didn’t read it, he shouldn’t be building electric chairs.
He deliberately uses low voltage, so it hurts. He modified my chair at the behest of the Jews in Tennessee and he changed the voltage. They reduced the voltage and they increased the current so now it will hurt and it will cook the tissue. One person was executed with it since it has been modified. We don’t know if it hurt him. It looked like it was an acceptable execution, but even all of the executions with Florida’s chair didn’t turn out to a fiasco, but there are enough of them that have to show that the voltages that he chooses shouldn’t be used. These people that did that, they did that full well knowing that the people that are going to be electrocuted in that chair are going to be tortured to death and they don’t care! But, they have a lot of power and they have a lot of force.
I consulted with the Commissioner of Corrections in the state of Mississippi, relative to their gas chamber. I was asked to write a report on it. Before I had the report finished, because the Jewish organizations found out that he did that, they fired him and the state notified me that they do not want to accept the report. Of course, I wasn’t paid for it. I haven’t been paid for a lot of things that I did because of these problems.
But the interesting thing about it is that the man who lost his job, his name was Commissioner Thigpen. He was a black gentleman and a black man in the state of Mississippi, in the Department of Corrections has to be an exceptional person to get the job of commissioner, because most of those southern facilities are all run by southern rednecks. Here was a man, who was good enough to get promoted to be head of the Department of Corrections, a commissioner and he was fired by the Jews because he asked me to see if the gas chamber was safe, and he didn’t kill any of his guards. It shows you the amount of pressure that’s been applied all over the country. To get at me, they would torture.
JR: It’s very mean spirited.
Now, to get back to the other thing. You wanted to know about my background. My father is 100% German. His father migrated from Germany before the turn of the century, and he fought in the Spanish-American War. His mother was born in Massachusetts of German parents. She came from the German district in Clinton, Mass. On my mother’s side, my family goes back, that’s the Herrick side. That goes back to the Herrick brothers that came into Salem sometime in 1622, … Been here for a long time. They were there through the witch trials. They were there through everything else.
FL: My great, great granduncle was with the Minute Men when the first shots were fired at Lexington. Another great, great granduncle of mine, who never had any children, was Colonel Prescott, and he was in command at Bunker Hill. He has been criticized a number of times for being stupid because he fortified the wrong hill. He was supposed to fortify Breed’s Hill. He was not stupid! He was an engineer. He fortified the best hill, and he almost won the battle even without ammunition.
[Image] Map of Bunker Hill Boston. On June 17, 1775, early in the Revolutionary War (1775-83), the British defeated the Americans at the Battle of Bunker Hill in Massachusetts. Despite their loss, the inexperienced colonial forces inflicted significant casualties against the enemy, and the battle provided them with an important confidence boost. Although commonly referred to as the Battle of Bunker Hill, most of the fighting occurred on nearby Breed’s Hill.
[Image] Painting of Col William Prescott at battle of Bunker Hill, by Frederick Coffay Yohn. The Battle of Bunker Hill (which actually took place mostly on Breed’s Hill) is a battle fought near Boston, Massachusetts, on June 17th, 1775 between the Americans, led by Colonels Putnam and Prescott, and the British led by Generals Howe and Clinton.
They didn’t send him any more ammunition; that’s why we lost the Battle of Bunker Hill. But first we had enough to repel the first volley of crack British marines. We had enough ammunition to repel a second. The third attack of the British, every other man had a bullet and after that, they defended the hill with bayonets and then they left.
The job was so well done that a British engineer was sent to survey the battlements that were made on Bunker Hill. And they teach the battle at Sandhurst*, because it was such a good job, with nothing.
*[The Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (RMAS), commonly known simply as Sandhurst, is the British Army’s initial officer training centre and is located in the town of Camberley, near the village of Sandhurst, Berkshire, about 55 km (34 mi) southwest of London.]
He was sent there in the middle of the night. They had shovels and picks, and they obtained some lumber some place. He built a very interesting battle plan. They built walls out of wood and sod that overlapped each other and was able to sustain three attacks of crack British marines. They had no food. They had no water and they had no bullets. The general, who was sitting in Harvard Square, who had promised the ammunition, he said:
“You go get ready to fight and we’ll send the rest of the stuff up to you.”
He got scared and said:
“What if the British come across the river and attack Harvard Square, I’m going to keep all the ammunition here.”
The British didn’t. They came up the hill. Colonel Prescott was apparently related to one of the alderman of the city of Boston because they were standing on the hill with the British general, and they were looking over the embattlements and before the battle started, Prescott was standing up on top of the hill walking back and forth in plain sight, so they could shoot him.
The point is, he was inspiring his men. He was also putting a bit of the fear of God into the British, and the British general said to one of the selectman, he said:
“Do you know that man? Will he fight?”
“That’s my brother-in-law. He’ll fight!”
And he did fight.
[Image] The Battle of Bunker Hill, by Howard Pyle, 1897
The traditions that they fought for were carried through in my family and my mother pounded them into my head, because I believe in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and I think they’re inviolable. I see what some of these politicians are doing, and I’m just disgusted.
JR: Well you know, just to let you know that in regards to free speech, I play a lot of your videos on my TV program and that’s one of the reasons why I’m banned. You tell the truth, people don’t want to hear the truth. This is what bothers me about free speech — it’s only free to those who want to take your free speech away. That’s what it comes down to. We still keep fighting. You try getting the information out there so people can see it.
FL: Unfortunately, this country seems to be going in the wrong direction; it gets worse. Probably the worst president we’ve had in the last two centuries was Obama.
[Image] Mad Magazine’s take on Obama.
Bush was bad. He and his Patriot Act took away a lot of our freedoms. They are constantly trying to take away our firearms, which are constitutionally guaranteed to protect ourselves from these politicians that are doing these things. But in the last administration of Obama, what he did was unconscionable. He, with an executive order, which executive orders are illegal, took away habeas corpus, which is a constitutional guarantee. Habeas corpus gives any citizen a right to be brought before the magistrate or a judge, if he’s been arrested. Because of the Patriot Act, you or I could be pulled off the street, sent to GITMO* and nobody would ever know where we are because we can no longer get them back because habeas corpus is gone.
*[Image] Map showing location of Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (also called GTMO and pronounced “gitmo” by the U.S. military because the airfield designation code is GTMO).
The second thing he did, which was very wrong and it wasn’t a constitutional issue, it was a legislative matter, is after the Civil War in the Reconstruction period, the military during the Reconstruction period was enforcing civil law and after the Civil War and after the Reconstruction period, Congress sat back and they said:
“We never should have the military enforcing civil laws, that’s why we have peace officers, not military officers.”
And they passed a special law, called posse comitatus, which prevented the military from enforcing civil law. With an executive order and a stroke of a pen, and again executive orders aren’t legal, but they’re enforced, Obama wiped out posse comitatus.
JR: He should have gone back and fixed it, but he didn’t do it.
FL: Because they’re constantly eroding our freedoms wherever they are and eventually, you know. I think they have a problem because I think they have been training the police for paramilitary activity and they have been giving them weapons that they shouldn’t have. They are peace officers, not soldiers. I think they expect civil unrest, and I think when that civil unrest occurs, I think they want the military to deal with it. But I think they have a problem with the military; because although enlisted men may follow orders, the officer corp is all or mostly Southern. And they swear their allegiance to the Constitution, not the president. They have a distinction. They know the difference.
Most of the Southern officer corp went to military school and worked their way up and then went through West Point, so they’ve been steeped in military tradition their whole life. They understand what a Constitution is and they understand what a president is and they understand that there’s a separation here and that the president can’t issue orders that are unconstitutional. And I think they’re going to have a problem because if they expect the military to shoot civilians, I don’t think it’s going to happen .So they’re going to depend upon the police to do that.
JR: Right. That’s what they’re grooming them to do now.
FL: Yes. That’s why they have been taking away all of our rights.
JR: Little by little.
FL: One of these days, you and I may wind up at GITMO. We may be cell mates.
JR: I don’t doubt that, believe me, I don’t doubt that!
Well, Fred, this has been a very enjoyable discussion.
This is Fred Leuchter with me today. You might want to look at some of the videos that are up there about his past life with the Zundel case. You can look them up there. A wealth of information. Here’s the Leuchter Report. You can also get a look at that. It talks about the gas chamber situation in Auschwitz and a couple of other camps. Fred did research there. These are the findings that he came up with, which again shows that they could never have been used for homicidal gassings. That is something that people should know about because that’s a big problem now, especially dealing with the holocaust issue, because that’s the way the people are said to have died, because they said they were gassed with homicidal gas — Zyklon B. That’s an excellent report, if you can find that out on the Internet.
Also, we want to encourage people in regards to free speech and things of this sort, think about the things that you see on the Internet, particularly dealing with people’s rights. As Fred was saying, it seems that as time goes on, our rights are being whittled away. Fred had to deal with this in regard to his free speech issues with the subject matter that we talked about today. I have to deal with it in my life too with my cable shows that I used to have on TV. They took those down because of the situation and the things I talked about.
Things are really getting hard out there in regards to the American public and a lot of people aren’t really concerned, not really looking at what’s going on. So, we want you to be aware and you’ll see that things are happening, that they are getting worse from day to day.Hopefully, you can continue on watching videos like this. My videos are on my YouTube, if you do a search on “RizoliTV”, you’ll find a lot of the videos that deal with the subject matter we’ve been actually talking about.
Well, Fred thank you very much for being on the show today.
FL: Thank you for having me.
JR: It was great hearing your Revolutionary War history. Lot of people don’t know about that. I didn’t know the whole case about, but I knew you had your lineage going back down to that period. Very interesting information.
I’m Jim Rizoli — and thank you for watching — with Fred Leuchter. Bye!
[Image] Fred and Jim concluding the interview.
INTERVIEW — FRED LEUCHTER AND JIM RIZOLI — HIS STORY HIS WAY
(Transcribed by Diane King)
* Total words = 16,482
* Total Pages (PDF) = 112
* Total images = 73
* All images captions are not part of the interview video.
* Original transcript written by Diane King in Sept, 2015.
* Transcript proofread and corrected by KATANA.
Click to download a PDF of this post (14.0 MB):
Version 9: Feb 18, 2020 — Re-uploaded images and PDF for katana17.com/wp/ version.
Version 8: Feb 6, 2016 — A couple of explanatory notes added, regarding “Doctor Death” and the “broom spear“.
Version 7: Feb 4, 2016 — Fixed some typos; added PDF file Ver 2.
Version 6: Feb 3, 2016 — Updated cover image; added Contents; fixed some typos; added PDF file Ver 1.
Version 5: Feb 2, 2016 — Added 13 more minutes. Total = 103 minutes. Transcript is now complete!
Version 4: Jan 30, 2016 — Added 15 more minutes. Total = 90 minutes.
Version 3: Jan 28, 2016 — Added 7 more minutes. Total = 75 minutes.
Version 2: Jan 27, 2016 — Added more images.
Version 1: Jan 25, 2016 — Posted 68 minutes.