Caller 1: The present day European jews came up through Spain. They came through North Africa, through Spain, from Italy and from the Middle East, and they went through Germany and they went to Poland. That’s the route that they followed. The jews are now in Israel.

Ernst Zundel: Hundreds of thousands come from under the stars in the Pale of Settlement. Can you tell me that.

Caller 1: They came from Poland?

Ernst Zundel: Oh, they came from Poland. They came from Poland and from Germany.

Ernst Zundel: I’ve heard of big migration from Khazars into Poland and into Germany under Frederick the Great, to be exact.

Caller 1: No, no, no! You’re speaking of the Oriental jews who came up from the Caucasus Mountain. The mountain jews who came from Babylonia and some Assyria.

Host: Ah, well, when it comes to this area, …

Caller 1: Let’s forget about it.

Ernst Zundel: No, in a sense, why would you want to discuss it? Because it’s going to., …

Caller 1: What’s that got to do with the jews who are now in Israel?

Ernst Zundel: Because then 80% of those jews living in Israel, according to the Arabs and according to this interpretation of it, are not Semites. Therefore they have no historic attachment to the Wailing Wall.

Caller 1: Good. Good heavens. You know what you sound like? Yesterday I read a book about a guy who said that the South American-Indians were the lost 10 tribes. They wandered across from Mesopotamia to India and to China. It crossed that Alaska and then down. The Incas and the Aztecs were descended from the 10 lost tribes.

Ernst Zundel: You are referring to the Book of Mormons, I suppose.

Caller 1: Oh, good heavens!

Ernst Zundel: I’m not saying it, man! It’s the Jewish Encyclopedia that is.

Caller 1: I don’t believe you! I don’t believe you!

Host: Well, in terms of history, according to Jewish Encyclopedia, we have a caller who is well versed in jewish history and we’ll go to him in just a second. Okay, just one second now. I think this is the line. Is that you, Mr L?

Caller 2: Yes, yes.

Host: Okay. You’ve been listening. Have you been listening?

Caller 2: Hello.

Host: Have you been listening for the last few minutes, Mr. Lipman?

Caller 2: Yes, hello?

Host: Hello.

Caller 2: Mr. Lipman. Yes, speaking. Hello?

Host: Yes, just one second now.

Caller 2: Speaking, please.

Host: Okay, there, you’re on the line now. Pardon?

Caller 2: Yeah, I’m the caller, Mr. Lipman. I want to speak to the Nazi and I want to speak to the jew there.

Host: Well, the jew hung up and the Nazi, as you call him, [chuckling] is on the line.

Caller 2: Did you laugh at the Nazi there?

Host: Yeah, go ahead, Mr. L.

Ernst Zundel: I beg your pardon.

Host: Go ahead. You’re on the air now.

Caller 2: Is the jewish man there, too?

Host: No, he hung up.

Caller 2: Well, if he hung up. Hello?

Host: Yes.

Caller 2: Wouldn’t be surprised if you’re listening while I’m talking.

Ernst Zundel: Yes, the jewish man is here. Go on.

Caller 2: Hello?

Host: Hello? Go ahead, sir.

Caller 1: First of all, I would like to bag the jewish fellow to take my telephone number and call me personally. I want to speak to him personally after I’ll finish. My number is [bebbed out] Sometimes you can still have my telephone number. I’m not hiding anything.

And I’m not hiding anything. And I can debate with you what I want to know, Mr. Caller Number One. Hello?

Ernst Zundel: Yes?

Caller 2: Caller Number One, is that you?

Ernst Zundel: Well, are you referring to the, …

Caller 2: Are you caller Number One?

Ernst Zundel: Yes.

Caller 2: Tell me, what capacity do you speak of the name of the Arab? Are you in capacity of making a peace between the jews? And are you official representative that you talk with such authority, or you just an ordinary journalist which writes in the yellow tabloid of [word unclear] Gable? Answer me the question, sir.

Ernst Zundel: First polite question.

Caller 2: I like concrete, man! I don’t like to talk nonsense! In what capacity do you speak to make peace between jews and Arabs?

Host: All right, he’s going to answer the question. Mr. L.

Ernst Zundel: Mr. M. Would you be polite?

Caller 2: Yeah, I will. Yes.

Ernst Zundel: Okay.

First of all, I’m not writing for Julius Streicher.

Caller 1: I beg your pardon?

Ernst Zundel: I’m not writing for Julius Streicher. And the other gentlemen because their papers have gone out of business.

Caller 1: Yeah, but there’s plenty of Streichers at the moment. Plenty of Streichers roaming around in the streets of Montreal and in New York and in South America.

Host: Well, sir, let me. Just for the benefit of listeners, your response can be interpreted two ways. You’re not writing for them because they no longer exist. Does that mean if they did exist, you would write for them?

Ernst Zundel: No, but I was just trying to find out how, …

Caller 2: Listen, give me an answer, man! I want you to give me an answer. Caller number one.

Ernst Zundel: Yes, I, …

Caller 2: In what capacity do you speak to make peace between the jews and the Arabs?

Ernst Zundel: Well, all night stated in a, …

Caller 2: Yeah, go ahead. I didn’t hear.

Ernst Zundel: Well, then you have, …

Caller 2: Repeat yourself.

Ernst Zundel: Mr. Lipman, are you there?

Caller 1: I’ll beg your pardon.

Ernst Zundel: Okay. Would you hang on for just a second, …

[04:55]

Caller 2: Yeah, wait a minute. I’ll close the radio. I’ll be able to hear.

Ernst Zundel: Okay, very good.

Caller 2: Go ahead.

Ernst Zundel: Radio done?

Caller 2: Yes, go ahead.

Ernst Zundel: Now, Mr Lipman, if you have been listening and you have been hearing not what you wanted to hear, but what I said.

Caller 2: Yes, what did you say?

Ernst Zundel: I said repeatedly tonight that I spoke as an individual.

Caller 2: Wait a minute. Yeah, but you speak like you’re sitting at a conference table with the jews.

Ernst Zundel: No.

Caller 2: And trying to make peace between the Arabs and jews!

Ernst Zundel: Oh, I say it as a suggestion. It’s a free country we are in.

Caller 2: Well, no, no, no, no, wait a minute. There’s a different. There’s a dialogue, man! We can criticize the jews. We can criticize anybody.

Ernst Zundel: Sometimes I wonder.

Caller 1: Yeah, we can criticize the jews. They are right sometimes. Don’t give me that stuff, mister. You know well that we can criticize the jews.

Ernst Zundel: Anybody that listens to the headline tonight must wonder the, …

Caller 2: The [word unclear] doesn’t wonder. The only thing is I can’t understand Mr. Bell. I told him one time how does he allow such poison to be spread when there Streichers and so many Meyers and so many. What you call them? You call yourself Meyer. Your father was Meyer, you said. And so many [word unclear] walking around in the streets of Montreal.

Host: All right, now if you’ll let me say something for just a moment.

Now, there are callers who are barred from the line because in my opinion, they are guilty of what you suggested Mr. L.

Caller 2: Yes.

Host: In my opinion, this gentleman is not guilty of what you suggest and it escapes me how you can accuse him of this.

Now, as I have said before.

Caller 2: Yes.

Host: I take issue with some of his figures. Another gentleman called up with other figures. We have a few more lines loaded. People with other figures.

Caller 2: From the jewish Congress they called.

Host: How’s that?

Caller 2: From the Congress. Jewish Congress they called.

Host: Yeah, well, I have somebody on another line with more figures. In other words, over a figure dispute whether the man, … And a few statements that he has made. He could be historically inaccurate.

Now, when quoting from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I don’t know. I’ve never read the thing.

Caller 2: Yes, Mr. Bell.

Host: Yeah.

Caller 2: Not only inaccurate, he’s full of lies. And I can prove it to him!

Ernst Zundel: Okay, wonderful! Why don’t you prove it?

Caller 2: I’ll prove it to you right away.

Ernst Zundel: Okay.

Caller 2: Listen. No, wait. I proved it to you! Give me a chance to prove it to you. I’ll prove it to you. I’ll prove it to you, man! I’ll prove it to you. I’ll prove it to you!

Ernst Zundel: I believe you.

Caller 2: Listen, listen! Will you listen?

Ernst Zundel: No, one hundred percent.

Caller 2: Will you listen?

Ernst Zundel: In other words, that we are going to be positive and not negative, that we don’t engage in name calling.

Caller 2: No, I wouldn’t call it a name calling, but just listen to.

Ernst Zundel: Okay.

Caller 2: I want to expose you that you are working for the Nazis! And you’re an agent of the Nazis. Okay.

Ernst Zundel: Okay. How much is my pay?

Caller 2: Do you know? I don’t know.

Ernst Zundel: And where is the headquarters by the way?

Caller 2: The headquarters in Nazis are still in Bonn. And it’s still in Cairo.

Ernst Zundel: So in other words, …

Caller 2: It’s still in Cairo!

Ernst Zundel: Is the Nazi headquarters in the, …

Caller 2: Is still in Bonn and Cairo. Will you listen? Will you listen? I want to refute your argument. Okay. I want to refute your argument.

Ernst Zundel: You’re wonderful!

Caller 2: I want to refute your argument. Oh, will you listen?

Ernst Zundel: Oh, yeah.

Caller 2: Well, listen. You made a statement that Germany restituted the jews so much. And you give figures, right?

Ernst Zundel: Yes, I did.

Caller 2: You did fine. Do you know that whatever they give 800 some million dollars it’s restitution, right or not?

Ernst Zundel: No.

Caller 1:800 million. I don’t argue. You had a figure. $826 million. They give a restitution to the jews. You said so.

Ernst Zundel: No, I didn’t.

Host: I’m the one who said that.

Caller 2: Hey, beg your pardon.

Host: I’m the one who said that.

Caller 2: Where did you get the figure?

Host: I got the figure from the Almanac.

Caller 2: Okay, fine, let’s be. So I’ll take this figure too. $826 million was given restitution by the German to the jews.

First of all, if you know history, and history is very young, that when Grynszpan* made an attack on the German ambassador in Switzerland or in Sweden, I don’t remember exactly between these two places.

[* Herschel Feibel Grynszpan was a Polish-Jewish expatriate born and raised in Weimar Germany who shot and killed the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath on 7 November 1938 in Paris. The NS’s alledgedly used this assassination as a pretext to launch Kristallnacht, “The Night of Broken Glass”, the pogrom of 9–10 November 1938. Grynszpan was seized by the Gestapo after the fall of France and brought to Germany; his further fate remains unknown. Wikipedia]

Ernst Zundel: I thought it was in France.

Caller 2: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Give me a chance to explain myself. So Hitler right away confiscated all the jewish wealth which amount to $4 billion. Before even he started to persecute the jews outside of Germany amounted to $4 billion.

Ernst Zundel: Not true.

Caller 2: It’s true! It’s in the paper. The start of civil life. I started the life here in Montreal. I’ll prove it to you. Number one.

Second thing. The money that Germany gave to the jews, it’s not her money. It’s American money from American taxpayers. Because Mr. Eisenhower and the rest of his gang wanted to whitewash the dirty deeds of the former Nazi. And he said “let bygones be bygones”. And he contributed $4 billion to build up again the Bonn government.

So it’s not their money, it’s American taxpayer pay the money. Is it right?

Ernst Zundel: Mr Lipman.

Caller 2: Wait a minute, I’m not finished yet. You got to listen. I listen to you. Because I listen to your story, which is full of lies. And I’m surprised that the jew that is a well capable man and that he converse with you. Because listen, I said to Mr. Bell, There is four brothers, four characters. Evil man, evil man, right or wrong. You still tell you that you’re wrong. So why they debate with you? You’re not an official capacity. You’re not an official capacity from the Arabs or from the Germans. What right have you got to speak in the name of the Arabs or the Germans or anybody else?

[10:12]

Ernst Zundel: That’s why you don’t like to talk to me. I’m just a goy.

Caller 2: I beg your pardon?

Ernst Zundel: You don’t like the other chap to even converse with this fantastic goy.

Caller 2: What goy? Anyway, go on. This language is French to me.

Ernst Zundel: You don’t speak Yiddish?

Caller 2: I speak Yiddish, yes. Goy is Hebrew. Goy means if you know Hebrew, goy means a nation, it’s not an individual. And he don’t even know the interpretation of goy. You don’t even know the interpretation of goyim.

Hello, Wait a minute. Listen, big shot. Goyim is plural, means nation. Goy means one race.

Ernst Zundel: And who is referred to usually as goyim?

Caller 2: I beg your pardon?

Ernst Zundel: Who is usually referred to as goyim?

Caller 2: They referred goyim. Because these people that say goy, they are ignorant. They don’t know what they’re talking about. Because goy means a race, one, a nation, I mean. And goyim is plural. So they don’t know. You just inquire if I’m in the wrong, I’ll give anything. You see?

Ernst Zundel: Right. Go on.

Caller 2: And number one, and we don’t use such language as “dirty jews” or any or anything else. When we. In our scriptures, if you want to know it’s written, when we go to the synagogue, we say:

“My Lord, forgive us all our sins. And also to those who live among us. Strangers that live among us.”

In other words, we pray for the non-jews too.

And as far as persecution is concerned, no jew persecuted yet a non-jew. It’s in history. And we were persecuted for 2,000 years.

And let me tell you one thing. I said sometimes I speak French. It’s [words unclear] English. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Give me a chance.

Ernst Zundel: I think the Old testament.

Caller 2: No, no, no! I want to prove my point that the worst jew, the worst jew, which is called Judas Ishkariot, had a conscience. And when betrayed Jesus Christ, he gave him the kiss of death. His conscious part of him. And he hanged himself. And I never seen non-jew that is conscious of him by attacking a jew, he shall hang himself. I never seen yet.

I said this to French people many times. But I’m French. I live with French more than the jews. If I speak French just as fluent as Yiddish.

Ernst Zundel: Are we a bit far off the point, don’t you think?

Caller 2: Go ahead. No, no, This is a good point. Pardon me. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I’ll listen to you. Then ask me question.

Ernst Zundel: No. You guys want to repeat all my arguments and call me and find out that I was a real liar and spreader of poison?

Caller 2: Yeah. I prove it to you and I mean it. If I said the word liar, it’s too mild. But I wouldn’t use any more of this word. I’ll debate with you like man to man. I’ll debate with you like man to man without any insults anymore.

Ernst Zundel: Would you say I’m maybe a super liar?

Caller 2: I beg your pardon?

Ernst Zundel: Maybe I’m a super liar.

Caller 2: Well, even this is mild.

Ernst Zundel: Oh, well, maybe we can find some other adjectives.

Caller 2: Yeah. Anyway. No, no, don’t worry. You’re a coward because when the man put you to the wall, cornered you last time, you ran away because you couldn’t take it.

Ernst Zundel: When was that?

Caller 2: That was two, three nights ago.

Ernst Zundel: Was the same man I spoke to?

Caller 2: The same man you spoke to? Yeah. He cornered you and you ran away and then you came back.

Ernst Zundel: The same man that I spoke to tonight for one hour that hung up on me!

Caller 2: No, no, no, no! You spoke tonight to the jewish family is well eloquent, but you’re still not acquainted well, with jewish history and world history.

Host: Right. That’s why I got you on the line, sir.

Now if we can dispense with personalities. You have accused the man of being a Nazi and of spreading poison. And you can’t for the life of you see why I permit it on the program. You will have to give me an example of a lie that amounts to spreading poison.

Caller 2: Yeah, I’ll give it to you.

Host: Good.

[13:48]

Caller 2: Of course, I’ll give it plenty. I got it in my [word unclear] my dear man, I got in my [word unclear].

Ernst Zundel: Okay.

Caller 2: And then here I give you the first example.

First of all, he said that the jews always lived with the Arabs. And first in harmony all the time, the Semite Arabs, I mean. And Palestine around there in the Middle East. The jews were always persecuted by the Arabs in Casablanca they had no right to walk on the sidewalk. Just like the negro had no right to walk in Alabama. Exactly the same thing for the last, 2,000 years! People in Casablanca lived in a ghetto and they couldn’t go out and they couldn’t show their faces, number one.

Ernst Zundel: But I didn’t say it’s the same.

Caller 2: No, no, no, no! You said once before. Not tonight. You said before the jews lived well with the Arabs. And I know history. You don’t know my history, but I know your history, my friend.

Ernst Zundel: I never said that.

Caller 2: Yeah, you said it last time. I’m not speaking tonight. And many Arabs made the statement that the jews never fought with the Arabs before. They lived in harmony, they understood each other, they were brotherly till the zionism came. I’m not a Zionist. I never will be a Zionist. I’m a jew.

Ernst Zundel: Mr. Lipman, why not.

Caller 2: What?

Ernst Zundel: What are the points that you differ with zionism?

Caller 2: What are the points differ what?

Ernst Zundel: Can you give us points where you differ with zionism?

Caller 2: Speak louder. I can’t hear good.

Ernst Zundel: Mr Lipman.

Caller 2: I beg your pardon?

Ernst Zundel: Why would you not be a Zionist?

Caller 2: Why?

Ernst Zundel: Yeah.

Caller 2: Because theoretically I don’t agree with them.

Ernst Zundel: Well, in other words, you wouldn’t say that the idea of zionism to found a jewish homeland in Palestine, …

Caller 2: Yes.

Ernst Zundel: Doesn’t please you?

Caller 2: Yeah. It doesn’t mean to say that I’m a Zionist, because if jews have to have a home. First, I’m a Canadian and first, the 6 million jews are Americans, they’re not Zionist. Not all of them are Zionists. If they’re Zionist, some of them is their business. But I’m not. I’m speaking myself.

Ernst Zundel: Yeah, but listen, I’m very interested.

Caller 2: Yes, yeah, I’ll do to you. I’ll give it to you.

Ernst Zundel: Very good.

Caller 2: Well, all right. If Mr. Bell permit a time, I’ll give it to you as much as you want.

Host: Well, you have seven minutes, sir.

Caller 2: Okay, then listen. I made a statement that if I’m not mistaken to Mr. Bell that we jews in Europe before the Hitler Holocaust, before the Nazis tried to spit their dirt in the world, we jews fought zionism with all our might in the street because we find it impractical! We said that we live in Europe 10,050 years. We have more right to demand our rights in Europe and live there than to the rights on Palestine. Right? Listen to this. Just a moment. I’ll give it to you. This story. We had a jewish organization which is called Bund.

Ernst Zundel: Oh yes, I know about this.

Caller 2: Yeah, you know everything. Hey, you’re a real Nazi! You know all the information!

Host: Sir, you asked him if he knew. He said yes, he knew!

Caller 2: I beg your pardon?

Host: I said you asked him if he was aware of a certain fact. He admitted to being aware of the fact.

[16:46]

[Remainder of Transcript in Progress]

[01:01:15]

END

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