Ernst Zundel: This is Ernst Christoph Friedrich Zundel. I’m about to share with you what by now is a historical series of interviews, talk shows, tape recorded excerpts of radio shows and reactions to radio shows which I did in Montreal in 1967-68.

I used to live in Montreal for nine years amongst French-Canadians. Enjoyed my stay amongst the French-Canadian population immensely. It was a very interesting time for me in that I attended university in Montreal and was very active politically speaking. Sometimes four times a week at different places in churches, businessmen’s clubs, union halls, air cadets, Boy Scouts, schools and so on about political topics, mainly communism, separatism, and of course, my always and ever ready favourite topic, namely the swindle of the 6 million jews.

In those days, this was completely new terrain for me, as it was for everybody else. No one in the Western world publicly had discussed this topic very much and it was positively dangerous to one’s health to touch upon this topic.

However, I was writing a column in the university student newspaper and gave speeches at the university and so on, and always ready and willing to have an intellectual scrap, or whatever you want to call it.

I decided one night that I would like to discuss this particular topic on radio. And it came shortly after the war in 67, the Arab-Israeli war. And the reaction was so fantastic that I decided to tape some of these talk shows. Unfortunately, it would take hours and hours and hours to bring all the tapes that I have. So these here are really excerpts. The moderator of the show was a young English Canadian whom I have never met to this day, certainly only knew from the air, never even spoke in private via the telephone, always only while we were on the air or during commercial breaks. He was about my age, and later on I heard through somebody at the radio station that his father was in fact an RCMP, a Royal Canadian Mounted Police captain.

Now, I have no idea if this was the reason why this young man was allowing me so much airtime. It was an absolutely incredible situation in that he did allow me sometimes five hours of often very little interrupted time to expostulate and to expound my outlooks and theories on life. So much so as can be deducted later on from some of the statements made by jewish scholars who are complaining about the amount of airtime that I got.

He was a very kind fellow. I thought he was eminently fair. And for the first time I felt that the gentile side, or certainly my side or the German side of this issue got a really good public hearing and a good airing.

This issue that we are discussing in the following tape the Arab-Israeli dispute and the German reparations payment was so intensely and intensively discussed that delegations from the Canadian jewish Congress and from the Israeli consulate used to visit the radio station, putting all kinds of pressure on that radio station. And it’s again evident by what the moderator later on is saying when he repeats that he has had death threats and assassination threats, boycott threats and so on.

Also it is evident from the reaction of the jewish callers themselves. I would like to draw your attention to the fact of argumentation, how the jewish community of Montreal, both young and old, European and Canadian, male and female, of how they argue, the tactics and the methods that they employ. It is a tremendous lesson to be learnt.

All the hate and the vilification that can be mustered against an individual totally unknown to them, except for what is being said on the radio comes through there. You can see the intolerance towards me and towards things German. You can also see how impolite these people are in that they constantly interrupt me in this particular case. And they would do the same with other Gentiles, never to allow us to bring a thought, to develop it and to draw it to a logical conclusion. Constant interruption, constant deflection manoeuvres, constant ridiculing!

And another interesting feature of the discussion is obviously always the attack from the jewish side against the individual that is launching some kind of an idea. Never so much as to the content of the idea. Usually the attempt is made to destroy, in effect, the accuser. And I’m called a Nazi, a Neo-Nazi, a German, in the most hateful undertones, and men and women alike. It is very interesting.

The man is desperate and asked me during a commercial break to please come to his rescue. This is Mr Bell, the moderator, and to say something nice about the Israelis. Not that I had said anything that wasn’t nice, but he thought I should get him off the hook and get some of the pressure off him by stating my case of what the heck I was really driving at. Because he was being accused on air, off air, by the station manager and by the station employees, many of them who were jewish, of being an anti-semite of the worst kind!

And so that young man was desperate. And since he treated me very fairly, I also came out to take the pressure off him with one of my statements about my policy on Israel and so on.

Now, when one listens to this whole tape, I want to be specifically reminding you, listen to what happens to statistics when money is discussed. Statistics, sums of money, sums of people and so on. Money and numbers of money and amounts of dollars and amounts of people have nothing to do in the discussion on the airwaves. People get lost, confused! Just listen to the pauses in the argumentation whenever we are discussing different statistical facts and so on. This is a very important point.

[09:19]

In closing, I will have to point out yet again that the station manager was forced to have flown by a special courier plane every morning the five hour long tapes to the board of broadcast governors at that time in Ottawa, the capital of Canada. And these men would sit there and listen to the argumentation going on because the president of the Canadian Jewish Congress, Dean Maxwell Cohen, had stated in front of a Senate committee at the time that Ernst Zundel was:

“Poisoning the air and pitting jew against gentile.”

And so on in Canadian society. And the station was under threat to lose its licence. In effect, what happened, the programme was pushed back towards very late at night. The times were changed for the program. Sponsors were lost. This young man, Mr. Bell, in effect was again fired from his job, lost his livelihood and the station closed this particular talk show down!

Once again, jewish pressure had succeeded in silencing a voice. Listen to the tapes now.

[Start of radio show recording]

Ernst Zundel: An inexpensive way for Israel of gaining allies and of undermining Nasser and the other high hats. The $1 billions. This is pretty close to what the war costs currently. New budget came out in Israel and it allocates 37% of the total budget of the state of Israel for defense.

Radio Host: Right. Okay, there’s a call on the line now. And I don’t know whether this caller has figures or opinions.

Hello?

Caller 1: Hello? Hello. Yes, I want to explain something. This man who is talking to you is a German pro-Nazi, you understand? I know him. I don’t understand why you’re so interested in these stories.

Ernst Zundel: Well, is there a law against being interested in those stories?

Caller 1: I know that you are pro-Nazi German.

Ernst Zundel: It’s wonderful how you throw labels around. What are you?

You want to declare yourself? What you are?

Caller 1: Don’t try to come out and [words unclear] Speak to him. You’re in Canada, you’re not in Germany.

Ernst Zundel: I know I’m in Canada, that’s why I’m speaking Over The Airwaves here.

Caller 1: No, come on! Here you understand. Go to Adolf [word unclear]. You are pro-Nazi. I know who you are.

Ernst Zundel: Yeah, you are pretty rude, sir. Truth hurts doesn’t it?

Caller 1: You try to come out to Mr. Bell, but you never have a truth.

Ernst Zundel: Very true. I don’t have a chance with Mr. Bell.

Caller 1: Right. You are a pro-Nazi. Go to [word unclear] Okay?

Ernst Zundel: Maybe it indicates something. Maybe it indicates something.

[Caller hangs up]

Radio Host: Now we’re dealing right now with some figures that are contrary to figures I have. And we’re getting callers. You have a few calls to take here.

Ernst Zundel: Right.

Radio Host: Now, I don’t know if anyone has any figures against the figures you have, which you got from the consulate here. This is not the first time that whether you are on the air or off the air, that someone has accused you of being a Neo-Nazi or something. How do you react to that?

Ernst Zundel: Well, of course, being a German, they think it sticks.

But I would like to remind them that I was born in 1939. That made me exactly, let’s say three years old when Hitler was at his supreme. It made me six years old when the Allies liberated us. Moroccan troops and Algerian troops. And I had three sisters at the time. And I would like to tell those people how it felt to be liberated as a 6 year old boy. I also saw 141 bullet holes where my mother was chased across a field By a, [word unclear] you know.

Radio Host: Algerian and Moroccan troops. Where were you? Where were you exactly?

Ernst Zundel: Black Forest.

Radio Host: In the Black Forest?

Ernst Zundel: Maybe Freudenstadt, was burned down completely. The hospital city of Freudenstadt is about half an hour away from where I was born. Neighbor city of Portheim was bombed in February and, 20,000 people got killed in one night. All that as a boy. You never forget those things, the sirens wailing, the bombers coming across and everything else, you know.

Anyways, I was 6 years old when the war was over. Now I have a boy, he’s 8 years old. If I were to ask him, are you a conservative or liberal? He wouldn’t know. Certainly was no card carrying member of the Nazi party. I immigrated to Canada at the youth of 19, not even. I have been here for the last 10 years.

So I don’t quite see why I should go and discuss my ideas on the Middle East with Mr. Fontaine. As a matter of fact, I think it’s very intolerant from the man they called. Am I any less a Canadian because I am of German origin? I would like to remind this man that we are Canada’s third largest ethnic group by far. That we are far more numerous than the Ukrainians and that we are far more numerous than the jewish Canadians.

In other words, I have just as much legitimate right to be discussing anything that I believe, including the Middle East.

Radio Host: Right. Well, you don’t feel that you’re anti-Israeli?

Ernst Zundel: No, I’m not. No, I’m not anti-Israeli.

But as I always say in every discussion, there is not only two sides to a coin, there is three sides to a coin.

Radio Host: That’s what I say.

[15:08]

Ernst Zundel: And if I look at the Middle East, I look at those hapless Arabs in their tents and those Arab soldiers, I know they have no axe to grind against Israel. They are victims of very emotional propaganda, because anybody that has a short wave receiver can pick it up. The operator of Radio Cairo. And the argument always emanating from Cairo is:

“That the jews have stolen your land and that’s why you are living in misery and in poverty.”

That’s why your Radio Cairo is lying.

So [word unclear] last week called and suggested that possibly a way out for the Israelis would be to pay a settlement to those people that lost their home, and their fields, in their stores in 1948 and possibly 1953. Is that a crime? Is that unreasonable? Is that being Nazi? I don’t see so.

Radio Host: Well, I think we have a gentleman on the line that you were talking with originally.

Sir?

Caller 1: Yes.

Radio Host: You’re on the air.

Caller 1: Okay.

Ernst Zundel: Yes.

Caller 1: Okay. Now, I don’t know about what you were when you were six, but you’re not six now. So the fact that you were six when Hitler was in power doesn’t have any logical reference to what you might be. Now, I’m not saying what you are or are not, but that has as illogical as an argument.

Let me ask you this.

Ernst Zundel: Yeah.

Caller 1: You say that two things. In the first place, you gave a figure, incidentally, I’m the chap you spoke to you last week.

Ernst Zundel: Right. I recognise your voice.

Caller 1: You gave a figure that a certain number of billions of dollars was paid to individuals, right. In Israel. What was that figure?

Ernst Zundel: According to the German consulate, it’s seven billion.

Caller 1: Seven billion?

Ernst Zundel: Right.

Caller 1: Now, how many jews were in Germany in 1933? German jews?

Ernst Zundel: 680,000.

Caller 1: How many German jews were killed by the Nazis?

Ernst Zundel: I think the figure is 320,000.

Caller 1: Well, I have a figure for you.

Ernst Zundel: Right.

Caller 1: It’s a very large one. In fact, I think it’s a bit exaggerated. But even if that’s a true figure., …

Ernst Zundel: How much is it?

Caller 1: About 100,000 German refugees, German jews were left after the war. I think that’s a high figure, but I’m not sure. But even if that’s a high figure, if they all went to Israel, which they didn’t do, you see, if they all went to Israel, which they didn’t do, and if they were all paid according to you, they would all, by my calculation, they would all receive, have received about $55,000 a piece!

Ernst Zundel: Just a moment, sir. Just a moment. I know figures.

Caller 1: Let me ask you this now.

Ernst Zundel: No, just you let me answer you right back.

Caller 1: Okay.

Ernst Zundel: So we don’t get off the track here.

Caller 1: Okay.

Ernst Zundel: The missing 200,000 or 250,000. Between my figure and your figure. Did you ever think that many jews between 1933 and 1938 went to Czechoslovakia?

Caller 1: Are you kidding?

Ernst Zundel: No, I’m not on that. I’m dead serious, man! I can bring you very [words unclear] that went to Czechoslovakia and that went to Vienna and that went to France and that went to, …

Caller 1: Are you kidding?

Ernst Zundel: I’m dead serious.

Caller 1: How can you be. How can you be. How can you be dead serious?

Ernst Zundel: Okay, we have a very prominent Montreal journalist that is always interviewed, that writes for many tourist papers. If Mr. Bell wants to pass the name up, I’ll give you the name. He left Germany in 1933.

Caller 1: Of course. Of course, there was some. But it required a great deal of money and they had to leave most of their property behind.

Ernst Zundel: But he didn’t. This man’s father didn’t.

Caller 1: Yeah, well, you have an individual case.

Ernst Zundel: Just a moment.

Caller 1: You have an individual case.

Okay, so how many were left? 300,000, you say. If there are 300,000 German jews left.

Ernst Zundel: No, I didn’t say that. The figures that, as you said to yourself, there are some exaggerated figures.

Caller 1: No, no, my figures exaggerated 100,000. I think it was very much fewer. But even if it’s 100,000, that would give each one of them $55,000. Is that what they got in reparations from Germany?

Ernst Zundel: Sir, I didn’t count the money. All I did is some research. Told the authorities that paid the money and that had the money on the book.

Caller 1: Now, did you go to the people who received the money?

Ernst Zundel: No, sir, I didn’t try to.

Caller 1: Well, let me give you some advice. If you go down the street from the West German consulate, there’s the Israeli consulate.

Ernst Zundel: Right.

Caller 1: Why didn’t you bother to take the figures that you got from the German consulate down to the Israeli consulate, and ask them if they put the same interpretation or indeed if they have the same figures that you got from the Germans? Does that ever occur to you? If you’re a journalist?

Radio Host: That’s a fairly good idea.

Caller 1: You’re a journalist, aren’t you?

Ernst Zundel: Yes, sir, it has occurred to me.

Caller 1: Well, before you get on the earth, before you send any stories to any newspapers, before you publish anything, go and check your figures from both sources. You say stories have two sides, and these three sides!

Ernst Zundel: Would the New York Times be a good source for accurate information?

Caller 1: I just told you what to do. And why didn’t you go to the Israeli consulate?

[20:05]

Ernst Zundel: Sir, would the New York Times you good source?

Caller 1: No, I don’t trust. I don’t trust any newspaper.

Ernst Zundel: Don’t eh?

Caller 1: No.

Ernst Zundel: Well, maybe I’m a bit more trustworthy. I trust that the Minister of Finance.

Caller 1: All I have of course is your report of what you read in the New York Times.

Ernst Zundel: The Minister of Finance of Germany had faced 482 Parliamentarians in Germany. Plus the whole press corp.

Caller 1: Yeah, yeah.

Ernst Zundel: Plus the Canadian [words unclear], plus the Canadian Jewish Eagle, plus the International Scientist Organisation and stated that we have, …

Caller 1: Let me ask you something else. Let me ask you something else.

Ernst Zundel: Go right ahead.

Caller 1: You mentioned the Canadian Jewish Eagle, eh, This is a Yiddish newspaper.

Ernst Zundel: Right.

Caller 1: I have many, many Christian friends here in Canada. As a matter of fact my adult years were all spent amongst non-jews. I’m a very jewish person. I would have to speak to 1,000 of them to find out anyone who has ever heard of the Canadian Jewish Eagle. How come you’re so interested? How do you know about it?

Ernst Zundel: Is it a crime to be?

Caller 1: No, no!

I’m just curious as to how you come to know about it. Do you read Yiddish?

Ernst Zundel: Do I read Yiddish?

Caller 1: Yes.

Ernst Zundel: That’s my business. I just might, you know.

Caller 1: You just might.

Ernst Zundel: Yeah.

Caller 1: Just like [word unclear] and he reads Yiddish too.

Ernst Zundel: Let me tell you something. If maybe that indicates something to you that my grandfather’s name was Isidor Meyer.

Caller 1: Isidor Meyer?

Ernst Zundel: Yeah. How do you like that for [word unclear] You think about that for a while.

Caller 1: Listen, listen. If you know any German history, you would know that German history is filled with a man like, … Do you know any German history? Ever hear of a man named Peppercorn?

Ernst Zundel: Yes, I know a man.

Caller 1: He went by the name named Peppercorn, lived about 400 years ago.

Ernst Zundel: That’s right.

Caller 1: And he was one of the worst anti-semites, a convert, that ever lived. I don’t care what your grandfather was called. You see, that’s not evidence of any kind.

Ernst Zundel: I didn’t say whether I read Yiddish or not.

Caller 1: I’m just curious about your interest in it, you see. What is your interest?

Ernst Zundel: My interest is.

Caller 1: Yeah.

Ernst Zundel: I’m interested in many things. You want to have a couple of statistics?

Caller 1: No, no, just why are you. Why are you so interested in the jewish question and Israel?

Ernst Zundel: Because it is very vitally involved with Germany and with the history that we are being taught.

Caller 1: Can I read something to you in a moment, Mr. Bell?

Ernst Zundel: Mr. Bell.

Radio Host: Yeah, I’m listening.

Caller 1: You got a moment there? Can I read something? I’ll give you the name of the guy who wrote it just in the paper as well, but just let me read it, if we’re concerned with these raids back and forth and the German interest in it.

Radio Host: Ah ha.

Caller 1: One of the more efficient leaders. This is a publication date of January 3rd.

Ernst Zundel: What year?

Caller 1:1969.

One of the more efficient leaders of the Al Fatah terrorist organisation is a tall, slender man who calls himself Al Hatch, “Pilgrim” in English. Al Hatch heads a group of specialists trained to assemble bombs which in turn are smuggled into crowded civilian areas of Old Jerusalem. In all likelihood, the recent terrorist attack which cut scores of lives in all Jerusalem, most of them women and children, are the work of this man.

Al Hatch is a master of disguise. He crosses the border sometimes in Arab guard, but more often dressed like a European. He also sports a forged Swiss passport. In his European clothes, he does not look one bit like an Arab, and for this reason, he was able to cross practically at will until his identity became known. There’s a good reason why Al Hatch is able to pass as a European. He is none other than Richard Winterhalter, formerly of the SS Death head squad. Winterhalter, wanted by West Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia for war crimes, operated both in Terezin, Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. Winterhalter was the key man who arranged for the death trains bringing elderly people from Terezin to the Birkenau extermination factories. He has also trained the special command of Auschwitz prisoners temporarily reprieved from the gruesome task of bringing bodies of murder victims from gas chambers to the crematoria.

Winterhalter escaped from a British prisoner of war camp during the summer of 1945 and crossed him to Italy. From there he made his way to Egypt, where he converted to Islam. During 1949, he made his pilgrimage to Mecca, calling himself Al Hatch. The newly created Mohammedan, promptly joined the battle against Israel and served under the notorious Mufti of Jerusalem. So, on about the deliberation plan.

Ernst Zundel: Now, who writes? What paper is it?

Caller 1: This is written by Peter Lust.

Ernst Zundel: Oh, well, Mr. Peter Lust. Wonderful.

Caller 1: Yeah. Now, this information, since he names this name, it suggests to me several things. In the first place, I want to ask a general question. I don’t dislike the Germans. I’ve been to Germany several times. I’ve met many young German people, in fact, in Israel. But I don’t understand. This is what I just can’t get through my mind about the German engineers who worked in Egypt, the German engineers who are working in Syria.

The Germans are helping these people now to fight the jews. Why can’t they just leave them alone? You know, they tried to get rid of them 30 years ago, 20 years ago. Why can’t they just leave them alone? Why just have to go on and on trying to get rid of what Hitler left over. Can you explain that to me as a German?

[25:08]

Ernst Zundel: I don’t know.

Caller 1: Have you ever thought about it?

Ernst Zundel: I don’t. Look, I came to Canada when I was 19 years old.

Caller 1: Don’t give us that bit again. You know. How old are you now? You’re 30?

Ernst Zundel: Yeah, I’m 30.

Caller 1: So you read newspapers?

Ernst Zundel: Yes, I do.

Caller 1: So you read about your fellow Germans who work for the Egyptians and the Syrians? What do you think about it?

Ernst Zundel: What do I think about it?

Caller 1: Yes.

Ernst Zundel: They’re engineers. They were forbidden by the allied, …

Caller 1: What do you think about it? No, don’t tell us about what they were forbidden. What do you think about it as a fellow German?

Ernst Zundel: You don’t have to be so aggressive. Anybody that shouts and screams indicates usually that he is [word unclear]

Caller 1: Not necessarily. If he gets stupid replies, he has to shout.

Ernst Zundel: I haven’t even made my replies, because you are so aggressive. So.

Caller 1: Well, what do you think about it?

Ernst Zundel: What do I think about it?

Caller 1: Yes.

Ernst Zundel: These people like for instance, Messerschmitt that build a plane for the Egyptians and the engineers like. Well, I think Metzgar is one of his name that builds El Kahir that never brought fire during the Arab-Israeli war, which is a rocket with a 600 mile range, along the V2 line. These men, by the treaties of or by the Nuremberg Judgment, are forbidden to build this kind of stuff in Germany. So they were looking for new fields.

Caller 1: Yeah, but why did you mean. Was that the only place. You know? There are many Germans who go to Israel to work. I’ve met them there. I’ve met them working in the kibbutzene, if they wanted. If they wanted to go someplace to work.

Ernst Zundel: If you are Messerschmitt that had designed jet planes and rockets, you’re hardly inclined to continue your career in an Israeli kibbutz.

Caller 1: I suppose. I thought he could have gone to Brazil where Dr. Mengele is, you know.

Ernst Zundel: Yeah. What is Dr Mengele, is he a rocket engineer?

Caller 1: No. Well, I could have gone to Brazil needs. It’s a funny thing, but they always end up. They always seem to end up on the side facing the jews! What do they want from us?

Ernst Zundel: Wernher von Braun is he facing the jews, sir?

Caller 1: You got one example there. And you had dozens working in Syria and Egypt.

Ernst Zundel: Anybody that followed Apollo lately knows precisely how many German rocket scientists are in America.

Caller 1: I’m not so excited about Wernher von Braun either I’m interested in knowing from him he’s going to testify in a trial. You know, I’m interested in knowing from him just as I’m interested in knowing from other just plain soldiers when they were in Germany for that long period. And since they are not stupid people. He knew exactly what he was doing when he was designing the V2s. You know, his conscience is not that kind that gives me admiration. I would just assume, just assume if he had been told that if he didn’t design the vehicles, they would shoot him, that he had let himself be shot. You know, he’s not one of my great heroes.

Ernst Zundel: How many of you Russian scientists that created the what they call the Stalin Organ rocket?

Caller 1: I haven’t the slightest idea about that.

Ernst Zundel: All right, how many of the, …

Caller 1: Let me ask you one last question.

Ernst Zundel: How many of the Canadians. Hang on for a moment. Do this one by one. Okay.

Caller 1: Yeah.

Ernst Zundel: You thought you could bring in a couple of good points and let me answer them.

Caller 1: Yeah.

Ernst Zundel: Those people that designed Liberator bombers.

Caller 1: I haven’t the slightest idea.

Ernst Zundel: Jews themselves.

Caller 1: Liberator bombers?

Ernst Zundel: That turned Dresden into a fiery inferno.

Caller 1: Are you? You’re not serious, are you?

Ernst Zundel: I’m dead serious.

Caller 1: The more you talk. You know, you’d be smart if you hung up right now. The more you talk you give yourself away.

Ernst Zundel: Why are you afraid you’re losing the argument?

Caller 1: No, what’s the point of bringing Dresden into this?

Ernst Zundel: Because in Dresden the estimates are apart from Mr. Peter Lust that was invited by Walter Ulbricht at his expense to go behind the Iron Curtain. I think Mr. Irving in England wrote a book about it.

Caller 1: Yes, I read the book. I read the book.

Ernst Zundel: All right. He says 300,000 people got killed in one single bombing raid.

Caller 1: Yeah, well, if the Germans had been smart in 1933 and they sat on Hitler, they wouldn’t have killed in 1944.

Ernst Zundel: We are not talking about who is smart. We are talking about what crimes.

Caller 1: Well, the Germans themselves were responsible for it. That was no crime. I’m against it. I’m against killing anyone. I wouldn’t have killed that one. You know, I’m against killing everyone. But once you start on that road, once you start on that road, that’s the way you end up.

[29:23]

Ernst Zundel: Yes, but anyway, doesn’t that answer my original argument again?

Caller 1: No, it has nothing to do with it because the people, …

Ernst Zundel: Wernher von Braun should have shot himself?

Caller 1: Yes, absolutely! Before even trying to [word unclear].

Ernst Zundel: Just a minute. Air Vice Marshall Harris that was in charge in England of the bombing of Dresden. There over 300,000 people, mainly refugees and women in an undefended city. It was called an “open city” via the Red Cross from Geneva. There was not one fighter plane that protected it. No [words unclear].

Caller 1: I can just imagine Hitler doing that. Well, my dear chap, I mean this is the information you get from what side?

Ernst Zundel: These 300,000 people got killed. I don’t see Air Vice Marshall Harris shooting himself.

Caller 1: That’s hardly a comparison, you know. Air Marshall Harris was fighting against an aggressor. It was Hitler that started the war!

Ernst Zundel: Well, you know, finding out [word unclear] is very interesting because, …

Caller 1: I see. As I told you’d better hang up. The longer you talk, the more you give yourself away.

Ernst Zundel: Just a minute. We’ll come back to it because you, …

Caller 1: You certainly sound like a six year old.

Ernst Zundel: Fine. I’m taking history at Sir George Williams University, sir. And you know what they are teaching us there? That at the very same time, I think it’s Sep 9, 1939, that Hitler walked into one side of Poland, Stalin walking to the other side of Poland. He occupied half of Poland and Hitler occupied the other side of Poland.

Caller 1: Two birds of a feather.

Ernst Zundel: Pardon?

Caller 1: So how does that make Hitler less an aggressor?

Ernst Zundel: If you are fighting the aggressor. Your point was that Air Vice Marshall Harris was fighting an aggressor?

Caller 1: That’s right. Hitler walked into Czechoslovakia, …

Ernst Zundel: Just a minute. Why was Air Vice Marshal Harris not also bombing Moscow?

Caller 1: They weren’t fighting with Moscow? Moscow wasn’t the enemy.

Ernst Zundel: Moscow was an aggressive, just as much as Hitler was!

Caller 1: Yeah, but Moscow hadn’t attacked England. Moscow wasn’t firing V2s at England. Besides that Hitler had, …

Ernst Zundel: [words unclear] aren’t you?

Caller 1: No, no. Yeah, you give yourself away.

Let me ask you one last thing. Let’s get back to 1968. Let’s get back to 1969.

Ernst Zundel: Yeah.

Caller 1: We follow your advice. The Israeli government from the $14 billion plus the $7 billion it’s got for the individuals.

Ernst Zundel: I didn’t say that.

Caller 1: Incidentally, is that the word that the Germans are using reparations that they paid to Israel?

Ernst Zundel: No.

Caller 1: What word do they use?

Ernst Zundel: In German they call it [word unclear] That means “to make good again”.

Caller 1: I see, Right. It’s not reparations since Israel wasn’t at war with Germany, right?

Ernst Zundel: And then some Germans wonder if Israel didn’t exist as a state, why Germany should pay for it as it didn’t exist?

Caller 1: Yeah, that’s a good question. Do you wonder that too?

Ernst Zundel: No, but I’m just pointing out to you.

Caller 1: Let me ask you guys. Let’s carry on then here, eh? You say you’re suggesting to solve the problem in the Middle East. East that Israel with its $14 billion and its $7 billion.

Ernst Zundel: I didn’t say 14 billion and 7 billion. You got the figures wrong. You should listen more closely, let hear what you want to hear.

Caller 1: Didn’t you say that the reparations, so-called, to Israel was $14 billion and the money paid to individuals was $7 billion? Isn’t that what you said?

Ernst Zundel: No, I didn’t.

Caller 1: What did you say?

Ernst Zundel: I said that under the treaty with the state of Israel directly, Germany made payments to the state of Israel to the tune of $3, 450,000,000. And this, …

Caller 1: What’s the 14 billion dollar figure?

Ernst Zundel: Pardon?

Caller 1: What’s the 14,000,000,000 dollar figure?

Ernst Zundel: I said up to 1969 all the reparations by policy paid to individuals, to the state, people living outside Israel was $14 billion.

Caller 1: Including people living outside Israel?

Ernst Zundel: Yeah.

Caller 1: What’s that got to do with the Israeli government?

Ernst Zundel: Okay, I’ll try. I’ll do it slowly for you. Okay.

I said separate treaty. One is between Israel as a state, you know as a state government of Israel?

Caller 1: Yeah.

Ernst Zundel: Between the Bonn government and the Israeli government. Money involved in that?

Caller 1: Yes, that’s 3, 450,000, you say.

Ernst Zundel: And there were payments involved between Israeli and between jewish individuals and carrying Israeli passport. But they don’t have to live in Israel, because Germany allows a dual citizenship in the case of a jew. Do you understand?

Caller 1: So you’re not including the figure of German ex-German refugees who had never gone to Israel? You’re not adding in that figure? You know, not all German refugees went to Israel.

Ernst Zundel: I know that.

Caller 1: So you’re talking with German refugees who either went to Israel and left or else they got the Israeli passport and here’s the passport. Okay, well this is a small thing. The first thing, let me repeat that you better, you’d better go to the Israeli consulate and find out what their side of the story is. Now in addition to that, let’s take your figure for what it. Let’s take your figure for what it may be. I accept your figure!

Ernst Zundel: Israel and James Weissman and David Ben Gurion and Levy Ashbolt, they have never quarrelled with these figures. Because these figures are open for everyone to see, including Mr [word unclear]

Caller 1: I accept them all. I’m not quarrelling with them either. I accept them in total, including your translation into German Reichmarks, so it sounds like 50 billion. But I’m not quarrelling with that. You’re suggesting, you’re suggesting, …

[35:03]

Ernst Zundel: Just a minute. I’m afraid I have to translate it into German marks because Germany doesn’t deal in [word unclear] or in [word unclear].

Caller 1: Yeah, but what purpose was there for you to mention German marks at all? All Canadians can understand dollars.

Ernst Zundel: It’s the currency to start with, ..

Caller 1: Yeah, I know, but you you said whatever the figure was 50 billion Marks. That sounds like $50 billion to someone not listening carefully.

Ernst Zundel: One second after I gave it in dollars. So look, don’t, …

Caller 1: Yeah, okay.

Ernst Zundel: You’re terribly suspicious, I must say.

Caller 1: So we’ve got whatever billions of figures you got there. And you’re suggesting that they should take some of this money and pay to whatever refugees are within their reach. Well, how much to each one.

Ernst Zundel: Nope. The last time I suggested. And this is my suggestion as an individual, it’s not a German government policy. They would be horrified if they heard me discuss this problem anyways because they’re such cowards when it comes to this.

Caller 1: What have you got to do with them? You said you’re a Canadian. What do they care what you say? What do they care what you say?

Ernst Zundel: I’m just declaring it to you.

Caller 1: Yeah, okay. So what’s your figure? 500 bucks a piece?

Ernst Zundel: No, I said commensurate with what they lost. And this is very easy.

Caller 1: But they didn’t lose anything, you see. They weren’t chased away. They left of their own accord, as you said yourself, because the legislation, the agreement, or rather the resolution that was passed at the United Nations at that time in 1947, which divided Palestine, remember not including Jordan, just Palestine, west of the Jordan, into two states, gave to the Israelis only that part of Palestine which was generally occupied by jews on land which they had bought from the effendis, and for which, incidentally, they also paid the peasants who didn’t own it at all!

In other words, these refugees didn’t leave from any land which at that time belonged to the jews. They left of their own accord, as you have yourself admitted on broadcast. On broadcast from their Arab neighbours. Okay, now, so what should, what should they be compensated for?

Ernst Zundel: Let me continue. First of all, many people that left were not peasants. Many of them were, …

Caller 1: I didn’t say that they were peasants. Those that left from [word unclear] weren’t peasants.

Ernst Zundel: You know, in other words.

Caller 1: But they weren’t chased away.

Ernst Zundel: Look, this wasn’t my argument at all! You’re always trying to put words in my mouth. I didn’t say that you don’t have to be hostile.

Caller 1: So why should they have to be recompensed for what I said?

Ernst Zundel: Oh, hold on. Look, tonight when I came on again, if Israel is in need of allies, which I think she is, and Israel says she is, then those 2 million Arabs would be very good allies.

Caller 1: What makes you think that?

Ernst Zundel: What makes me think that?

Caller 1: Yes.

Ernst Zundel: Because these people are, I’m sure, very tired of living in tents. They would be very good friends of Israel if they thought that the Israelis were giving them a hefty deal than the Arabs.

Caller 1: And it’s your speculation that if they were paid by the Israelis, they would suddenly become friends of the Israelis. Is that your speculation?

Ernst Zundel: Hold on, those Arabs that are living in Israel since 1948, you yourself and every other jewish caller that called said they are treated like an Israeli, they are prospering, they have all the military service and everything else.

Caller 1: Okay.

Ernst Zundel: Are they hostile to Israel?

Caller 1: Generally speaking, no.

Ernst Zundel: Okay. You see what I mean?

Caller 1: No, but it’s hardly the same thing, you know.

Ernst Zundel: It’s the same thing. Right now hundreds of thousands of Arab refugees are living in territory administered by Israel.

So what I was suggesting was extend the same policies that you, …

Caller 1: That’s not the same. That’s not the same policy, at all! You know, if you were to pay them whatever figure you think would be adequate, would they be then brought back to Israel or would they be left where they are? Where would they go? With their little payment, with their little check? Where would they go?

Ernst Zundel: Hold on for a minute. It would be in the interest of Israel, I suppose that they would settle them somewhere, which I think Israel is trying to do.

Caller 1: In Israel? In Israel? In Israel?

Ernst Zundel: No, in the new territory.

Caller 1: What new territory? The Israelis aren’t keeping those territories.

Ernst Zundel: According to the Montreal which I have in front of me, it says that these territories are called the “new territories”.

Caller 1: These territories are called the new territories?

Ernst Zundel: Right.

Caller 1: What date? What story is that?

[News Break]

Radio Host: You had a question you wanted to ask? Go ahead.

Caller 1: The other end is not just taking up your time. But he considered what he suggested, a practical solution to the problem. Now does he consider. We didn’t finish before we went to the news. Is he suggesting, if I may be wrong, suggesting that these people would, the refugees would come into Israel to get paid.

In other words, the one and a half million who are now outside would have to return to Israel. They would get to pay whatever. He didn’t specify what amount of, let’s say, several hundred dollars. And they would remain in Israel, Is that the suggestion?

[40:12]

Ernst Zundel: I can’t decide where they wanted to go, where Israel wanted them to. It’s entirely up to them. But my main point in bringing up the payment angle is that I know that those people live on handouts from the United Nations and they are always in every story that we hear and read it, that they were dispossessed by the Israelis.

Caller 1: Yeah, but this. Yeah, I know, but, …

Ernst Zundel: You see what I mean, it would be a good point as far, not as a publicity stunt, I wouldn’t want to say it that way. But it would be a great deal in the favour of Israel as far as the world situation is concern. And specifically for those small Arab people, whether they be peasants or herdsmen or former storekeepers. To them, I’m sure it would show the goodwill of Israel and it would make life out of every statement that emanates from Beirut or from Cairo as [word unclear].

Caller 1: It doesn’t require this to show up the statements that emanate those countries as lies tell people to those people.

Ernst Zundel: People with a full stomach and a square meal and more comfortable mud hut rather than a, …

Caller 1: But don’t you don’t, in the first place, if you base your suggestion on the moral question that they were dispossessed by the Israelis, therefore the Israelis would look better in the eyes of the world by recompensing them in one way or another. This is from a false start because they were not dispossessed by the Israelis.

This point has been made time and time again! And it doesn’t matter how often uninformed people say that they were dispossessed by the Israelis, it still doesn’t make it true, because you can’t turn back history and say because it’s repeated, therefore it becomes true. The only reason there should be any compensation, I mean, if the Israelis had it and if other governments had it, they should give it to their human being.

But from a practical point of view, I don’t see, looking at the way the Arab governments around there operate, I don’t think it would make any difference whatsoever to forming, to getting peace with the Arab countries. This is what the Israelis are after. They want to sit down with Egypt and with Jordan and with Syria, if Syria can stay on one seat for a long enough time and sign a peace treaty after 20 years.

Now, how payments to the refugees who would either be kept after that they can’t be admitted to Israel because Israel hasn’t got room for them. What they would do with the money, that they would go to Amman or they would go to Cairo. Those countries could have taken them before and they didn’t. They kept them there for a special purpose. And for you to think that because they will get several, on the contrary, it’s very likely that what would happen if they got the money, it’s such an impractical suggestion. How would the money get to them outside? Would they be in checks or in cash? In Jordanian money and Egyptian money? You know, if they got it, they would probably end up in their mind having the money taken from them by those governments. What makes you think that if they were to receive that money, it would make the slightest difference in the attitude of the Arab governments, the Arab governments to Israel?

Ernst Zundel: First of all, I have to. Maybe I am naive, I doubt it. But the point is, if Israel wants to have peace, it is obvious that the Arab government for the last, 20 years, the government, the cliques in power, whether they be the Bath party, whether they be the colonels of Nasser or whatever they are, those in power are not speaking for the small peasants, but they are using those peasants as a weapon and as a tool.

Caller 1: Let me ask you something. Have you been to the Middle East?

Ernst Zundel: No, I haven’t.

Caller 1: Have you never been to Turkey?

Ernst Zundel: No, I haven’t.

Caller 1: Or Egypt? None of those countries?

Ernst Zundel: Have you been to the moon?

Caller 1: Yeah. No, no, I’ve been to those countries and it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference what the peasants think. It’s the colonels that are in Cairo that matter at this point. I don’t see what the peasants, how the peasants [words unclear] at all!

They’re medieval countries, you know.

Ernst Zundel: I don’t see that the [word unclear] himself has stopped across the border, planted a mine in the market in Jerusalem and blown up 10 Israelis.

Caller 1: He might as well have. What difference does it make? He tolerated the people who did it.

Caller 2: Not partial at all! This is the World Almanac of the 1966 Yearbook of Britannica. Now, there’s no bias in there or any prejudice. I will quote you if I may.

Ernst Zundel: Right. Well, I got my figures from an almanac too.

Caller 1: Oh, okay. The overall picture, this is page 430. Under the topic of Israel. The overall picture was one of continuing prosperity and expansion, tempered by a growing balance of payments problems which was expected to become more serious because of the ending of the German reparations payments. This I assume, is in 65, which had ended.

Ernst Zundel: [words unclear]

Caller 2: Just a minute.

Ernst Zundel: World Almanac reparations payment too.

Caller 2: These had accounted for about $70 million annually. Now, if you carry that for 20 years, that would be a total of 1, 400,000,000. Which does not come anywhere close to your figures.

So how do you account for that? This is to the state of Israel, money reparation.

[45:22]

Ernst Zundel: Well, how do I count for that?

Caller 2: You said 7 billion.

Ernst Zundel: I thought I went to the horse’s mouth.

Caller 2: I beg your pardon.

Ernst Zundel: I thought I went to the horse’s mouth.

Caller 2: Yeah, but you went to the wrong horse.

Caller 1: Your zoology is all wrong.

Ernst Zundel: It’s the person that pays the Bill usually less in funds than the person that, …

Caller 1: He usually tries to build up what he paid, though.

Radio Host: Well, in terms of Britannica, though, I would assume that to arrive at any figure they would go to more than both sides. Again you have to, …

Caller 1: Definitely! And through the fact that it involves the changing of funds into international currency of some kind.

Radio Host: Right. Well, when we use the term dollar, it is accepted that it is the American dollar.

Caller 1: Yes, that’s right. That’s the international currency.

Ernst Zundel: Hold on for a moment. I’m mulling this thing over here.

Caller 1: Yeah, it’s probably 7 billion in Reichmarks is that would make it a billion 400,000!

Radio Host: Yes, it wouldn’t it?

Caller 1: Yeah, 7 billion Reichmarks would make it a billion 400,000.

Ernst Zundel: The ratio is not.

Radio Host: No, the ratio is 3 to 1, isn’t it?

Caller 1:5 to 1.

Ernst Zundel: No, no.

Caller 1:4 to 1. Something around there.

Ernst Zundel: It’s now 32 cents per mark.

Caller 1: That’s now. So that’s now. The dollar has fallen. The Mark is up, is very strong.

Radio Host: Right. So there are three marks in the dollar, roughly.

Ernst Zundel: No more. There’s, …

Radio Host: Well, like in terms of 31 billion marks, you got your figure. $10 billion.

Ernst Zundel: Roughly. Yeah.

Radio Host: I mean, we’re being rough, but you know.

Caller 1: So you speak German? Maybe they told him in Germany he doesn’t understand!

Ernst Zundel: Very funny, very funny!

Radio Host: Well, anybody can look it up if they have Britannica.

Caller 1: Yeah, of course, you shouldn’t argue with [word unclear].

Radio Host: Anyway, this is curious. I’m looking up to find, you know, where I. Again, you see, there are cross indexes here and I have the United Nations roster to find out, you know, where to find West Germany. I can’t find them on the roster here.

Caller 1: Look for it on the Republic of West Germany.

Ernst Zundel: No no, West Germany is not a member of the United Nations.

Radio Host: I was coming to that conclusion and I was afraid to say so, but it appears it is not a member of the United Nations.

Caller 1: I wonder why?

Ernst Zundel: Germany wasn’t at the time considered to be fit to be part of member nation.

Radio Host: Well, well, well, there are 124 members. Neither Germany is here.

Ernst Zundel: No, neither will you find, I think South Korea and North Korea. Neither South Vietnam and North Vietnam.

Radio Host: That’s right. They’re not here.

Ernst Zundel: That’s right.

Caller 1: Let me go on. Can I go on for something that has a similar, two similar suggestions that are made that relate somehow to your suggestion, it’s a speculation as to whether what you do will have the desired effect. You know, Israel can pay out this two or $3 billion or whatever it happens to be, and it should go down the drain, down the Suez Canal and hear no more about it. And they should be just as violent.

So it would be a pretty dangerous thing for Israel to carry that out on your say so.

Let me ask something else now. It is suggested that Israel, in the case of this attack on Beirut, that as a matter of fact, the message came the Pope after he had been criticised for his first statement, he made another statement which wasn’t a very satisfactory either one. It sounded like he was saying:

“Well, you’re both wrong, so both stop fighting.”

It suggested that if the Israelis wouldn’t retaliate, which is what they’re being charged with, that the Salahi, that the Al Fatah and the terrorists would stop crossing the border.

Now, anyone who thinks that if the Israelis would not respond, then the people on the Jordanian side, the terrorists would stop, you know, must be out of his mind! What else can the Israelis do if they’re being shot at? They shoot back. You know, they were to stop in order to conform to what the Pope suggests and other very kind people are suggesting that they should stop escalating it. They’ll be run over!

Ernst Zundel: The jews have a law, a eye for a eye, a tooth for a tooth.

Caller 1: Oh, come on now!

The next thing you’re going to tell me, the next thing you’re going to tell me is that I belong to a tribe. You know, you sound like something out of the Middle Ages!

Ernst Zundel: Well, Life magazine has [word unclear] that.

Caller 1: I don’t care what Life magazine does! You know, what’s this “eye for an eye” business? That went out of fashion 2500 years ago!

Radio Host: Well, it’s back in vogue now because it’s interpreted by many as referring to transplants! [chuckling]

Caller 1: Israel is clear that the reason for their attack on the Beirut airport, and they made specific, they made very good, very good care that no one should be hurt, was to teach the Arab countries around there that the Israeli Airlines was not something that could be just thrown away. They had to show them it wasn’t an eye for an eye. It wasn’t revenge of any kind. It was to teach them that if they carried on the path that they were following that they would suffer for it! Which would make them stop. And this has been the reason for all the Israeli so-called retaliation. What they get is the time of peace. And usually it has happened. There has been hardly any fighting around this way because the Israelis hit back hard!

[50:39]

Ernst Zundel: Every news commentator that I have listened to from the United States, from Europe and the GDC, they all say that these terrorist organisations have succeeded in their primary aim and that is to make Israel overreact. Would you say Israel overreacted?

Caller 1: No, I wouldn’t. I don’t see how she could overreact. I don’t see how she could overreact by destroying 13 aeroplanes in exchange for human life. That’s not an overreaction.

Ernst Zundel: [words unclear]

Radio Host: How’s that?

Ernst Zundel: Everybody else seems to think so. Including [word unclear].

Caller 1: Now, tell me something. What difference does it make in a question of right and wrong what everybody else thinks?

Ernst Zundel: Well, first again there is your right and there is they are wrong and there is you’re wrong and they are right.

Radio Host: Okay, just before somebody calls up and correct us on it, let me correct it.

As far as the Deutsche marks is concerned, there are 3.988 per US dollar. Okay gentlemen. The last gentleman who is on the line. Are you satisfied with the point you made?

Caller 2: Yeah. I have one more point to make.

Radio Host: What is it, sir?

Caller 2: Have you ever heard of the flying carpet notion whereby about a million jews would [word unclear] all the Arab countries including Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt and Syria, were all thrown into Israel without a penny in their pockets and it was the Israeli government who undertook them, closed them, fed them and gave them jobs. They came into Israel without a penny in their pocket.

Radio Host: Right. Well, in terms of restitution or reparation, it has been suggested by our caller that these people be included.

Caller 2: Yes, but why they forgotten? When everybody talks about the Palestinian refugees, what about these people?

Radio Host: Well, as was suggested when I when mention it that it had not been mentioned before. It’s a suggestion from a staff member who was in the booth with me at the time.

Caller 1: Would the restitution come from the Arab government? They should be the ones responsible because that’s where they came from.

Caller 2: Exactly!

Caller 1: And can you imagine them doing it?

Ernst Zundel: Well, look, why don’t give them the benefit of the doubt.

Caller 1: Give whom the benefit of the doubt?

Ernst Zundel: The Arab government, put you on the spot.

Caller 1: Are you a journalist? Did you say you’re a journalist?

Ernst Zundel: Yes, I’m a journalist.

Caller 1: Why are you dreaming? Why are you having these dreams?

Ernst Zundel: You know something? I have to make a very basic point here.

Caller 1: Yes.

Ernst Zundel: You people. And this is so evidently so when you listen to these open lines. You are extremely sensitive! And you are always having such a perfect taste.

Caller 1: It has nothing to do with this! It has nothing to do with it!

Ernst Zundel: I’m a fan of Sherlock Holmes and of Perry Mason and you know about Perry Mason? Everybody that watches television, you know what Perry Mason does? He usually investigates the guy with the perfect alibi first.

Caller 1: Do you know something else? I’ve listened to you two evenings. I haven’t heard you say a good thing about the Israelis.

Ernst Zundel: I haven’t?

Caller 1: No.

Ernst Zundel: Well, my suggestion was that they should possibly pay restitution.

Caller 1: What kind of a good thing is this? This is the sort of a dream that has no relation to reality.

Caller 2: Can I bring in another point just for a second? It says here in the same yearbook, just a little bit smaller paragraph below, it says:

“A new series of terrorist attacks in border areas originating mainly in Jordan and Syria and later also in Lebanon, began during the year.”

Now, this is back in 65.

Caller 1: Of course, this is true. I was in Israel last spring. I was shooting a film there. And part of my filming was along the Lebanese border. There was an old synagogue about three miles from the border. Just about three hours after I had passed there and done my work, a mine was blown up. Now, this was way over, way over near the Western, near the Mediterranean Sea, just south of the Lebanese border.

Now, for any Jordanian or Syrian to have been able to go all the way from there east of the Jordan to plant that mine would have been impossible. This was a Lebanese mine. And there have been incidents from Lebanon time after time after time! The Israeli intelligence is excellent! As a matter of fact the Jordanians have just today hunt two spies, or they call them spies who are spying for Israel, if you can imagine that.

So the Israeli intelligence is pretty good. When they say that they know what’s going on inside Lebanon, I’m pretty sure that they know.

[54:56]

Ernst Zundel: Yeah, I agree with you.

Caller 1: Okay?

Ernst Zundel: That’s a good thing to say about Israel?

Caller 1: Well, you’re absolutely impossible! Here you have a country. You know, I feel, when I read my, I don’t understand it when I read my Bible, I feel embarrassed about something that the Israelites did 2,000 years ago. I say:

“Why should my people have behaved like that?”

You know, I’m not really guilty, but I feel sorry that they should have. That it shouldn’t be one of our traits. Here you have a people in the Middle East whose only existence., … Now, I’m not a Zionist, that’s why I’m saying this. Whose existence, Israel is due solely at this point in history. Who knows when they might have created, if at all! At this point in history, it’s due solely to the behaviour of your people! You see, and you have the gall, the chutzpah to come along on a public show and to make criticism of them, why they’re there they shouldn’t have been there in the first place or something else.

Ernst Zundel: Did I say that?

Caller 1: Well, you certainly suppose that from the way you talk.

Radio Host: Well, again, you see, the caller accused you of hearing what you want to hear before, and this is evidence of it. He never did say that.

Ernst Zundel: I would be perfectly happy to give you the Arab case. What they say:

“Why you shouldn’t be there, if you want to.”

Radio Host: Well, I don’t know if any of you are listening on my Saturday morning program. Late in the program, we did get someone who outlined it on Viewpoint Tonight. If any of you are watching, it was outlined again. There are three sides to this story. There’s the Israeli side, the Arab side, and the truth!

Caller 1: Well, of course, that doesn’t necessarily follow. It’s possible that one of the two sides is true.

Radio Host: Unfortunately, no. This is, it’s just like in the case of a divorce or anything else. There’s his side, there’s her side, and then there’s the truth!

Caller 1: That’s very clever. But in an actual situation where you have two antagonists, it’s very possible that one of the side is more right than the other.

Radio Host: According to whom, though? You see, according to the Israelis, they’re right. The Arabs are wrong. According to the Arabs, they’re right. The Israelis are wrong.

Now, I’m not saying to be objective. I do not believe anyone can be objective. And I don’t care who says that you can be objective in this case. All I say is that you should be fair!

This is why I am accused by Arabs of being anti-Arab and I’m accused by Israelis of being anti-Israeli.

Caller 1: That’s quite unfair to you because you have to be fair as a moderator and present both sides of the coin. I can understand the Arab point of view, although I think it’s wrong.

Radio Host: Yeah. But on this issue, I’m the only host of a programme on this station to my knowledge that is getting threats against my life and so on over this issue.

Caller 2: It won’t come from me. I think you’re pretty good.

Caller 1: What I was going to say is this. If you take the Israeli and the Arab position, the Israelis have nowhere else to go. There’s some suggestion made that on the part of so-called anti-zionist and some Arab books I’ve read and articles that the European jews. Let me state now several things here, that the European jews who are now in Israel who came from Eastern Europe should go back since they’re not Mediterranean, but they’re probably descended from the Khazari who were a Turkish people in the Crimea 1300 years ago. That they’re really Europeans, blue eyed, blonde, so they shouldn’t be in Israel at all! You can well imagine this kind of a suggestion that Ben Gurion, who was born in Russia, that the Russians would let him back into Russia.

In other words, he’s going to stay there. Certainly the Israeli disciples who were born there are going to stay there.

And can you imagine the Yemenites who were born in [word unclear] to go back there? And the Egyptians to go back to Egypt? So it’s not very likely to happen.

Ernst Zundel: May I just come in here?

Caller 1: Let me just finish that. So the Israelis, when they say they are going to stay, they’re going to stay.

That’s one side of the coin. You can believe that’s their point of view and I can see their point of view and I don’t see how anyone else can. I mean, what’s wrong with that point of view?

But then you get the Arab side of it which says they’re going to drive them into the sea, get rid of them! Can that be correct as well? How can it?

Ernst Zundel: Well, can I come into the point here?

Caller 1: Yeah.

Ernst Zundel: According to The Jewish Encyclopedia, Volume 4, Pages 1 to 5, it deals with what you just outlined, the Khazars.

Caller 1: The Khazaris, yeah.

Ernst Zundel: Right. And it says in there:

“That the Khazar Empire, it was founded by Asiatic Mongol people in the first year after the birth of Christ and existed till about the 14th century.”

As you said. But it had its peak in the seventh and eighth century. These people were heathen and they’re converted to Judaism.

Caller 1: That’s true. Okay, so what’s that got to do with the Israelis right now? And the Mediterranean in 1969.

Ernst Zundel: This is on which much of the Arab argument is based on. If you had heard the UN debate.

Caller 1: Yeah, but you see, you’ve got to start from where you are. You can’t start from where you were 500 years ago. The Israelis are now. What is going to happen to Ben Gurion, for example? Would he go back to Russia?

[1:00:19]

Ernst Zundel: No, no. May I make a point here, a philosophic point, if I may?

Caller 1: Yeah. Okay.

Ernst Zundel: So the Arabs and [word unclear] that was speaking at the United Nations, he was horrified over CBC at the time of the Arab-Israeli war. He said precisely that.

In other words, he said:

“The Khazars were converted to Judaism or what was called then Talmudism.”

And like, …

Caller 1: Watch, watch it. What’s Talmudism? There’s no such thing. Just stick to what you know.

Ernst Zundel: Look, I’m quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia, volume 4 pages one to five, …

Caller 1: Talmudism? Okay.

Ernst Zundel: In the seventh century, Judaism. It wasn’t called Judaism. It was called Talmudism.

Caller 1: Oh, come on! I don’t know who wrote that, but this is all nonsense!

Radio Host: All right. Who wrote the Jewish Encyclopedia?

Ernst Zundel: I suppose a couple of anti-semites!

Radio Host: [chuckling]

Caller 1: So what? They disappeared. They disappeared in the 14th century. What’s that got to do with the German jews?

Ernst Zundel: They didn’t disappear. That’s precisely the point!

Caller 1: Of course they became Christians. They were absorbed into the Russian Empire.

Ernst Zundel: They didn’t become Christians.

Caller 1: Where are they?

Ernst Zundel: They were spread all over the Soviet Union, all over the Balkans. And this is why you have such a big amount of Eastern European jews. They are called the Khazars. And do you know, difference between the Sephardic and Ashkenazis?

Caller 1: The Khazars, …

Ernst Zundel: The total percent, the [word unclear] state. And the Jewish Encyclopedia has a map in the book. 80% of the world’s jewish population today are Khazars. In other words, they are converted!

Caller 1: What are you talking about?

Ernst Zundel: Precisely. That’s what the Arabs are saying.

Therefore. Just a minute now. Look, this is the argument. You have to look at their argument and you have to look at your argument and then we can arrive at something. That’s why the Arabs say that, …

Caller 1: Well, the Arabs don’t know what they’re talking about and you don’t know what you’re talking about. Because, … Let’s forget about it. Let’s forget about it!

[1:02:21]

END

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